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COWBOYGRANDPA

The death of others does not solve our problems, they become our problems.
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Christian conservatives Say the Poor and Needy should be helped by God, not the Government !!!

Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:15 AM EDT
politics, liars, greedy, pharisees, self-centered, non-christians
By cowboygrandpa
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Christian conservatives Say the Poor and Needy should be helped by God, not the Government !!!  After just posting an article about the Christian conservatives not wanting to follow the commands of Jesus Christ.  I noticed one constant running throughout the comments of the "conservative christians"  they all said the poor and needy should be taken care of by the individuals and not by the government funded programs.  Even though I tried to explain to them that many Christians pay theirtaxes and want to help the poor and needy over giving corporations handouts and paying for food not be grown.  Most were insistent that the government had no place in helping the poor with tax money because it is not given willingly or donated it is taken from us. 

Now I don't know about you.  But I have have heard an awful lot of the conservatives running for a place on the ballot for the President of the USA claiming to be Christians.  One of things they all seem to have in common is their hatred of the poor people in America.  They all want to make life harder on them by restricting what the government will do for them with tax payer money.  Remember that is tax payer money, not conservatives money, not liberals money, not moderates money.  Tax payers money to be used to benefit the well being of this nation, not just the wealthy or conservatives !!!

 

I agree the poor and needy should be helped by God.  I pray that God does not allow the conservatives to get control and make it worse than it is already for the less fortunate.  We need less greedy corporate conservatives in office and more moderate Christians and people in office.   We need people that realize that God does help people through the government as well, because there are to many greedy conservatives who are like the Pharisees that Jesus Christ rebuked and warned against.  We need to make sure our voices are heard loud and clear and that the tares in the churches are shown as the poison they are.  Weeds that attempt to pass themselves off as wheat are still weeds.  By their fruit you will know them.  

If they live in greed they are a weed.  God knows who loves Him and who loves the money, He is not fooled by them.  Oh and another thing.  They love to throw around the redistribution by tax agenda.  The wealthiest have had their taxes cut and reaped a harvest at the cost to the working people who have lost through the tax cuts and reductions and are now looking at deeper cuts if taxes are not raised.  Jesus wasn't moved by the amounts of money the wealthy donated, because they gave of their excess not of their living.

 Let me just end by saying.  If we live in Jesus Christ our lives are for Him, and we do as He said to do.  Not as the wealthies' mouth pieces tell us to live, especially when they cannot find the scriptures in the Bible to rebutt the fact that their love of wealth is not biblical.  God uses who He will as He will and that includes governments and believers just as well as non believers. 

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  • Public Discussion (161)
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cowboygrandpa

FTA:

If they live in greed they are a weed. God knows who loves Him and who loves the money, He is not fooled by them. Oh and another thing. They love to throw around the redistribution by tax agenda. The wealthiest have had their taxes cut and reaped a harvest at the cost to the working people who have lost through the tax cuts and reductions and are now looking at deeper cuts if taxes are not raised. Jesus wasn't moved by the amounts of money the wealthy donated, because they gave of their excess not of their living.

  • 11 votes
#1 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:17 AM EDT
storyartist

Christian conservatives Say the Poor and Needy should be helped by God, not the Government !!!

sayeth Satan

  • 8 votes
#1.1 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:00 AM EDT
RI Mom

Those ardent Christian Conservatives better up their tithings because in their individual communities there is unemployment, foreclosures, motel-children, and lay-offs for teachers, police and firemen.

And...maybe the really ardent Christian Conservatives should STOP TAKING TAX DEDUCTIONS on their charity.

  • 10 votes
#1.2 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:06 AM EDT
ERich-356044

Which would be fine if they actually DID feed the poor and help the needy....

But they don't. I honestly doubt they'd rise to the occasion if the govt. pulled all their social programs.

  • 13 votes
#1.3 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:23 AM EDT
ndeepnow

America is 14 trillion in debt. How much longer do you believe your government will be able to help you?

First off if you have the means you need to put food and water up. At least a month or more of food. Even if it's one can of raviolis per day. One can is better than starving to death.

Then you can start helping others. If you put 30 more cans up you can help a neighbor for 30 days.

We are Americans. We can do anything. An if Jesus is on your side, who can be against you.

Have Faith -- may the Lord Jesus Christ bless you and yours.

  • 4 votes
#1.4 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:36 AM EDT
Idj

Their god, LUCIFER, does not believe in helping others. Those are 'Jesus' teachings....

  • 6 votes
#1.5 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:36 AM EDT
Pat N

Which would be fine if they actually DID feed the poor and help the needy....

Studies show that conservatives give more of their time, money and even blood than liberals do, even though liberal household income averages 10% higher:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123258358706104403.html

In May of last year, the Gallup polling organization asked 1,200 American adults about their giving patterns. People who called themselves "conservative" or "very conservative" made up 42% of the population surveyed, but gave 56% of the total charitable donations. In contrast, "liberal" or "very liberal" respondents were 29% of those polled but gave just 7% of donations.

These disparities were not due to differences in income. People who said they were "very conservative" gave 4.5% of their income to charity, on average; "conservatives" gave 3.6%; "moderates" gave 3%; "liberals" gave 1.5%; and "very liberal" folks gave 1.2%.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/03/conservatives_more_liberal_giv.html

-- Although liberal families' incomes average 6 percent higher than those of conservative families, conservative-headed households give, on average, 30 percent more to charity than the average liberal-headed household ($1,600 per year vs. $1,227).

-- Conservatives also donate more time and give more blood.

Also, I see far more faithbased charitable organizations than I do liberal ones. The Salvation Army, St. Vincent DePaul, Awana, World Hope International, the Red Cross...and that doesn't even count the plethora of local faith based soup kitchens, food banks and shelters.

  • 7 votes
#1.6 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:54 AM EDT
space guy

Ah, yet more dissimulation. What the previous article of yours had was that you claimed it was our duty as Christians to pay more taxes so that government could feed the poor. It is NOT government's role to feed the poor, at least not the federal government no matter what. Please find out where it says that in the constitution.

What we were talking about before is that it is your position that a corrupt and bankrupt government, with a debt of above $15 trillion dollars, should tax us even more so that the "poor" can be fed.

The government has been using "helping" the poor for decades as a means to grab more and more of the national income.

You had your hat handed to you yesterday in your disproven claims that the Bible says that we should let government feed the poor.

  • 7 votes
#1.7 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:21 AM EDT
redsfan

Good article, cowboygrandpa and I agree with you...but I have one observation..

It seems to me that government programs help everyone who meets the standards for such help...and those standards involve poverty level. But many religious groups will only help those people who agree with their religious philosophy...or who will agree with to listen to their proselytizing...or who meet a certain "standard" for their help that often involves christian morality. That's why it cannot be left up to churches to help the people, because they often (not always) will not help those who refuse to be "saved".

  • 7 votes
#1.8 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:29 AM EDT
Pat N

But many religious groups will only help those people who agree with their religious philosophy...

Name one. I have yet to see a Catholic sponsored soup kitchen, a Christian sponsored shelter or an Evangelical food bank turn away anyone based on their faith or lack thereof.

Just one....that's all I ask. Name one mainstream faith based charitable organization that refuses to help people based on their religious affiliation. You say there are "many". Surely coming up with one won't be that hard.

  • 4 votes
#1.9 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:41 AM EDT
King Dave

At the Jesus buffet today, I'll have the self-forgiveness, the condemnation of others, and the dominion over every living creature on Earth. And let's not and say we did, "Judge not, that ye be not judged” (Matthew 7:1)

Where population, aids, poverty, and religious violence is at it's worst, the Christian Church forbids the use of any type of birth-control. Thus assuring the poorest people on Earth have the most children and the shortest lives.

If you examine secular societies in comparison to religious societies; secular societies will consistently have less crime, unemployment, corruption and more freedom, share of wealth and a higher standard of living. Nearly EVERY single advancement towards morality (I.E: ceasing native genocide, freeing the slaves and women’s suffrage) was OPPOSED by the church and Christian organizations.

  • 8 votes
#1.10 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:44 AM EDT
cowboygrandpa

storyartist:

#1.1

Are you calling me satan ??

  • 2 votes
#1.11 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:47 AM EDT
storyartist

Christian conservatives Say the Poor and Needy should be helped by God, not the Government !!!

Nope. "Christian Conservatives" is the subject of the sentence.

  • 5 votes
#1.12 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:00 AM EDT
cowboygrandpa

Ah, the liars come out because they have been exposed in the light. Again they try to claim that I'm saying the that the government is responsible because they cannot understand the Truth when it is said.

They want government only for their benefit, like children they are beyond accepting reason.

No where do I try to claim it is the governments responsibility. The point I'm making is that the conservatives don't want to let God work as He will. They think He is just supposed to work through private giving.

How utterly prideful of these fools to try and limit how God can work !!!

But ya see when they are exposed for what they are they get angry. Deceivers in the name of wealth, they want to control who can do what based upon their limited understanding of how God will work.

They have no clue as to how to make government work, so they say the government should just stop helping the needy in this nation. Their way of making things work is to tie everything to greed.

  • 5 votes
#1.13 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:01 AM EDT
storyartist

Are you calling me a liar?

  • 4 votes
#1.14 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:05 AM EDT
redsfan

In 2006, Catholic Charities of Boston announced it would end its adoption program before it was forced to comply with state laws preventing discrimination against married gay couples. Then last year, Catholic Charities of the Archdiocese of Washington followed suit, shutting down its 80-year-old adoption program in the nation’s capital rather than help place children with gay foster parents.

Now the trend has spread to Illinois, where the Chicago Tribune reports that Catholic Charities in five regions decided to end their state-funded foster-care programs once that state’s civil union law took effect in June. Thousands of families – including 330 children in the Rockford area alone – were suddenly without an organization to handle their casework.

How compassionate of those “charities”!

Unlike Catholic Charities, Secular Groups Will Help Everyone

  • 4 votes
#1.15 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:23 AM EDT
cowboygrandpa

space guy:

Hahaahaa haahaahaaaaa !!!

I had my hat handed to me ?? Lets see. Your comments were supported by few and they are supported by the same old "cc's" who say don't take my money I'm greedy and I want my money to go where I want it to.

Who is that to, the con men who promise you they'll help the poor and end up taking a large percentage for their own benefit, while those who donate write it off their taxes thereby making the government repsonsible for that portion of the donation.

Get a clue !!! You pretenders are getting a light shined on you, you cannot hide from and I'm not going to quit !!!

Who are you to say that the government should cut aid to the poor while still spending billions to kill people ?? Do ya think God is real pleased with all you tares right now ?? I see some weed killer coming down soon, then the weeds will be bundled together and burnt.

As far as proving your points. All you have done is to narrowly define what you think God is allowed to do. You are trying to restrict Him into only doing what you think He should do. You are like so many others who have only a mind that defines God as you see Him.

I can see beyond your limited views of God and see that all things work together for His good for those who believe in Him. That includes greedy capitalists being forced to contribute taxes to help people they don't want to help. It is called being shown who God is and not what you to make try to limit Him to be !!!

In others words, just because you and those whose limited understanding of how God works, say that God didn't say to depend upon the government neither did He forbid the taxes of the people to be used for His work.

So again and again I will say to you. You are not basing your beliefs upon the scriptures, you are basing your beliefs based upon a theology and trying to make the Bible fit your theology instead of making youtr theology fit the Bible..

Scribes and Pharisees you resemble. The ones Jesus Christ constantly rebuked and warned for their lack of understanding of what God was saying in the The Holy Bible.

  • 4 votes
#1.16 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:28 AM EDT
cowboygrandpa

storyartist:

#1.14

Nope. I'm calling those who religious beliefs run along the lines of the Scribes and Pharisees the liars.

  • 2 votes
#1.17 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:30 AM EDT
ndeepnow

Well who in the obama administration believe / accepts JESUS as their lord and savior?? Obama doesn't.

NOW I will admit he believes in class warfare. He believes in liberation theology where there is the Oppressed and the Oppressor. The white man is the oppressor of the world and everyone else is the oppressed.

That's what you want to put your faith in??????

  • 2 votes
#1.18 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:31 AM EDT
redsfan

The Salvation Army’s practices cited included a confirmation-like ceremony at its temple on West 14th Street for 9-year-olds in its city-financed foster care program in which each child was handed a Bible and prayed over, as well as prayers offered with snacks in a day care program. Donna Lieberman, executive director of the civil liberties union, said the Salvation Army never disputed the allegations.

Settlement in Salvation Army Suit on Proselytizing

  • 4 votes
#1.19 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:33 AM EDT
storyartist

You know, this sounds a whole lot like a CC rant. Telling us WHO God is, and who God is not. It's my understanding that none of us can know that. It's the humility of worship and sharing that we're all in this together that is common in most religious dogma.

The disconnect is when followers dictate what someone else's God should be.

  • 2 votes
#1.20 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:35 AM EDT
Pat N

Redsfan -

All you can come up with is (A) A Catholic adoption agency refusing to facilitate adoptions to gay couples in Boston? So are you also one of these people that believes churches should be forced to marry gay couples even though it flies in the face of the tenants of the church? How is adoption "charity", anyway? (B) Your second example of the Salvation Army...did they refuse to help the child in question? Afterall...that IS your claim.

    #1.21 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:43 AM EDT
    Ripley8

    Pat N

    Which would be fine if they actually DID feed the poor and help the needy....

    Studies show that conservatives give more of their time, money and even blood than liberals do, even though liberal household income averages 10% higher:

    BS.

    here's why...

    charity isn't giving something then writing it off on your taxes. Charity is given without expecting something in return. Getting it back is a loan.

    secondly ...

    as to the poll of who gives more ??? it's kinda like the poll of who goes to church .....

    Hadaway, Marler, and Mark Chaves counted the number of people attending four Protestant churches in Ashtabula County, OH, and in 18 Roman Catholic dioceses throughout the U.S. In their 1993 report they stated that actual attendance was only about half of the level reported in public opinion surveys: 20% vs. 40% for Protestants, and 28% vs. 50% for Roman Catholics. 1,11

    They later returned to Ashtabula County to measure attendance by Roman Catholics. They physically counted the number of attendees at each mass over several months. They concluded that 24% of Catholics in he county actually attended mass. They then polled residents of the county by telephone. 51% of Roman Catholic respondents said that they had attended church during the previous week. Apparently, most were lying.

    It gets worse.

    Sociologist Stanley Presser of the University of Maryland and research assistant Linda Stinson of the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics completed a study of notes in personal diaries. These time-use diaries were maintained for social scientific research projects in the mid-1960s, 1970s and 1990s. Those participating in the projects were asked to keep track of their activities. The 1992-1994 diaries, for example, were used by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency to determine exposure of the participants to harmful substances in the environment.

    Presser and Stinson found that many Americans were not at church when they claimed to be. Their best estimates are that the percentage of adults who actually attended religious services during the previous weekend dropped from 42% in 1965 to 26% in 1994.

    Presser said:

    "We asked people, tell us everything you did in the last 24 hours so we can know what chemicals you might have been exposed to. If somebody went to church, they ought to tell us, but if they didn't go, they shouldn't manufacture it. We didn't do what most polls of religious belief do, and ask, 'Did you go to church in the last seven days?,' which some might interpret as being asked whether they were good people and good Christians." 13

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/rel_rate.htm

    • 5 votes
    #1.22 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:49 AM EDT
    space guy

    Who are you to say that the government should cut aid to the poor while still spending billions to kill people ?? Do ya think God is real pleased with all you tares right now ?? I see some weed killer coming down soon, then the weeds will be bundled together and burnt.

    What I said was that you cannot find even one verse in the bible where Jesus or anyone else says to turn to government for help rather than turn to God, and then he will help you.

    You are attempting to turn this into some kind of guns vs butter argument. Here is what the preamble to the constitution says.

    We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[note 1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

    Notice the two words in black.

    pro·mote/prəˈmōt/

    Verb:

    1. Further the progress of (something, esp. a cause, venture, or aim); support or actively encourage.
    2. Give publicity to (a product, organization, or venture) so as to increase sales or public awareness.

    Here is the definition of provide:

    pro·vide/prəˈvīd/

    Verb:

    1. Make available for use; supply.
    2. Equip or supply someone with (something useful or necessary): "we were provided with a map".

    There is NOTHING in the constitution of the United States where it is the responsibility of the federal government to PROVIDE poor people with food, clothing, or shelter. What it does say is that the federal government should PROMOTE the general welfare by providing the conditions whereby the people can prosper.

    It is clear that our federal government today, in its well intentioned plans to PROVIDE for the people have created the conditions through their corrupt and bankrupt plans, is doing the opposite of promoting the general welfare.

    There is an old saying that the road to Hell is paved with good intentions and what you want is for the government to build a superhighway to that location because when the nation becomes bankrupt, we ALL will be poverty stricken.

    • 3 votes
    #1.23 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:53 AM EDT
    Pat N

    BS.

    Take it up with Gallup and Realclearpolitics. Two sources typically cited on NV by liberals.

    here's why...

    charity isn't giving something then writing it off on your taxes. Charity is given without expecting something in return. Getting it back is a loan.

    1) You DO know that you can't deduct 100% of a charitable contribution, right? It's silly to think people are using it as some sort of 'investment' for tax purposes.

    2) How precisely, does one write off blood and time?

    3) Is it only conservative givers that take advantage of tax deductions? Liberals leave their charitable contributions OFF of their taxes out of the kindness of their hearts?

    • 2 votes
    #1.24 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:02 PM EDT
    Ripley8

    PatN

    Donations Dropped 11% at Nation's Biggest Charities Last Year
    http://philanthropy.com/article/A-Sharp-Donation-Drop-at-Big/125004/

    Charity donations down by 11 percent last year
    http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2010/10/17/news/doc4cbb340f5ded8021451223.txt

    The Coming Charity Crisis
    http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2008/06/11/the-coming-charity-crisis.html

    Donations Slip Amid Anxiety
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704256604575294913333857770.html

    as I proved .... people in polls say what they think they should say , not the facts.

    the best way to prove it is to count the receipts of said giving by those individuals and compare that to voting record.

    it's charity. you shouldn't be able to deduct any of it. However more many do because the more wealthy you are the higher the deduction.

    • 3 votes
    #1.25 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:07 PM EDT
    daMamma

    PatN

    A lot of those "self confessed conservatives" would be called out as "liberals" by the conservative base. Polls can be misleading and easily skewed to say what ever one wants them to say. So I'm not buying the poll.

    Inferring that only "conservatives" or "Christians" donate to those charities is seriously disingenuous. People of all social/political leanings as well as all religions/non-religion donate to those same charities.

    Churches helping others is a great thing. However they simply do not have the resources to do it by themselves. They just don't. And for every one that would gladly help anyone that walks up to their doors, regardless of their faith there is one that would shun any non-Christian (or not the "right" type of Christian)

    Cowboygrandpa is right. We do need these government programs, and we do need to keep them sufficiently funded. Are there better ways to run these programs? Of course there are, but getting rid of them is not the answer.

    Folks need to just quit pointing fingers at others (because of their political leanings, or religious affiliations) you think don't donate enough, or don't donate where you think they should. Do what you know is right. Whining and moaning about who might benefit from tax dollars is shameful at its best.

    • 6 votes
    #1.26 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:10 PM EDT
    Pat N

    Inferring that only "conservatives" or "Christians" donate to those charities is seriously disingenuous.

    You know the best way to tell when someone is losing a debate on the Vine? They falsely accuse the other person of having said "only" or some other generality.

    I provided sources. You decided to dismiss those sources because they didn't fit your version of reality. You have yet to provide anything that disqualifies those sources.

    • 2 votes
    #1.27 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:48 PM EDT
    cowboygrandpa

    You know the way to tell if someone is trying to deflect the truth about what is being said.

    They cannot defend it by the verses in The Bible. So they turn to the ways of man to make their point as if God is unable to show what He wants in His Book.

    Where in The Bible does God forbid taxes from being used to help the poor ?? I mean that is what many of the conservative "christians" claim. They infer that it only private sources that are to help the poor.

    So please feel free to show me the verses that keep the government from helping the poor.

    They want to put God in a box and limit what He can do based upon their own beliefs !!!

    That is my problem with them. They think they are the only authority on God.

    Hahaahahahahaaaa !!! Here is a clue for them.

    God is the authority on God not them. He sent His Son Jesus Christ to illustrate where so many of the errors in understanding His way were. Yet 2,000 years later we have the Pharisees still clinging to their own understanding.

    Political/economic christianity is what many of them practice. Wake up Pharisees, the time is near.

    • 2 votes
    #1.28 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:04 PM EDT
    Pat N

    You know the way to tell if someone is trying to deflect the truth about what is being said.

    They cannot defend it by the verses in The Bible. So they turn to the ways of man to make their point as if God is unable to show what He wants in His Book.

    You know how to tell if someone's debate has reached the point of desperation? They assume someone is a Christian when they have stated continuously on this site that they aren't and has even written articles pertaining to such.

    I'm your worst nightmare, CG. I'm a conservative that's not a Christian who believes Christians are charitable givers and that charity comes from the heart and not the federal government.

    • 1 vote
    #1.29 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:08 PM EDT
    NiteOwlett

    Everyone can deduct their charitable donations, cash without anything given back, is 100% deductable IF you don't have a high income and you itemize your deductions. High income taxpayers have their deductions limited so you could say a percentage of their deductions are not deductable. Donations of actual time and blood is only deductable as far as auto mileage goes, but merchandise contributed is at fair market value, if new, that is fair market value.

    Making statements about the political stance of people who contribute their time and money could not possibly be correct and forming opinions based on this is silly.

    I would say in general, the poor or middle class tax returns, those who do not itemize their donations, make those donations along the same percentages as those who take the donations on their tax returns. I have done taxes for (too) many years and this is my opinion.

    • 1 vote
    #1.30 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:11 PM EDT
    space guy

    They want to put God in a box and limit what He can do based upon their own beliefs !!!

    Your problem is that the solution that you propose, is at variance with the entire bible. Not once in the entire book does it say give more money to a bankrupt government so that it can do what God has promised to do himself.

    God has conditional promises, and his absolute conditional promise for his direct help is that you turn to him, not government.

    It is your belief, that has no biblical support, that we should embrace having our taxes increase so that a corrupt and bankrupt government can use the money for whatever they want, like more Solyndras.

    • 2 votes
    #1.31 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:12 PM EDT
    ndeepnow

    Can you tell me a place inthe bible that Jesus says the government should be the one. That we should give our money to the government to take care of the people.

    I tell you what. When the government does it then people stop relying on Jesus. They put their faith in man. When one does this then problems are right around the corner.

    Jesus says I command you to come up out of this world.

    • 2 votes
    #1.32 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:12 PM EDT
    Pat N

    NiteOwlette...therefore, it is then your contention that the whole premise of this article is faulty then, correct?

      #1.33 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:14 PM EDT
      cowboygrandpa

      Pat N:

      You are not my worst nightmare at all. LOL

      But hey if it makes your day to think so feel free. ;~)) :~))

      • 3 votes
      #1.34 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:36 PM EDT
      cowboygrandpa

      space guy:

      Your problem is the greed blinding you to what is true.

      You think God rewards the greedy, while punishes the needy.

      You are stuck in a works based faith it seems like. Yes the promise of God is conditional. Accept Jesus Christ , repent from ones sins in Him, allow Him to change you into what He wants you to be, turn from the ways of the flesh and follow what The Holy Spirit leads us to do as we war against the desires of the flesh.

      So how am I not doing that by saying that allowing the poor to be helped by all means needed is Christ based, if the reason for it is His leading ??

      Do you really think I like paying more taxes ?? I hate it, but it is not up to me to decide what amount I pay. They are taxes imposed upon me by the government. If they are going to take the money from me I would rather have it used for helping the poor and needy rather than go for wars and blood spilling by the heartless and greedy.

      Is it clear to you now ????

      • 3 votes
      #1.35 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:47 PM EDT
      space guy

      You think God rewards the greedy, while punishes the needy.

      There is absolutely nothing in what I have written that should lead you to this conclusion. You don't know me or my background to make any such assertion, this is pure projection on your part.

      You are stuck in a works based faith it seems like. Yes the promise of God is conditional. Accept Jesus Christ , repent from ones sins in Him, allow Him to change you into what He wants you to be, turn from the ways of the flesh and follow what The Holy Spirit leads us to do as we war against the desires of the flesh.

      No, it's actually the opposite, you have your reality inversion field turned on in your first sentence.

      Do you really think I like paying more taxes ?? I hate it, but it is not up to me to decide what amount I pay. They are taxes imposed upon me by the government. If they are going to take the money from me I would rather have it used for helping the poor and needy rather than go for wars and blood spilling by the heartless and greedy.

      Paying taxes has nothing to do with being a Christian. What you are advocating is that it is our Christian duty to have more money taken from us to have the government use it to feed the poor. There is nothing in the bible to support that position. Additionally, this particular government has used the "feed the poor" excuse to continue to borrow money that we can't repay, which is leading us to national bankruptcy. Don't use the excuse of defense spending as it as at a historic low relative to the total federal budget.

      • 3 votes
      #1.36 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:31 PM EDT
      Pat N

      Cowboy -

      Then perhaps you should attempt to put together a more coherent argument to me, since your first one (post 1.28) was based on a false assumption and you seem to have nothing to back it up now that your silly assertation that I'm a christian has made your post null and void.

      • 1 vote
      #1.37 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:53 PM EDT
      daMamma

      Paying taxes has nothing to do with being a Christian. What you are advocating is that it is our Christian duty to have more money taken from us to have the government use it to feed the poor. There is nothing in the bible to support that position.

      You are right, paying taxes has nothing at all to do with being Christian. Everybody, regardless of being of any particular religious belief, or of none at all, everyone pays taxes.

      No one is saying that "Christians" have to pay more. Quit being silly. Everybody pays about the same, unless of course you are rich, then you've got all sorts of loop-holes and tax breaks the rest of us don't have.

      While I see many come right out and say that the bible does not say "let the government help the poor" and this is true enough. It also does NOT say that the government can't or shouldn't help the poor through a part of the taxes it collects.

      All this whining really makes it appear that there are some Christians and non-Christians that lament being asked to help out those less fortunate.

      Oh and PatN, your link was from the WJS (wall street journal) which is notoriously right leaning politically. The same poll taken in traditionally social or political 'conservative' areas compared to one taken in traditionally social or political 'liberal' areas will show two completely different results. Not to mention 1500 is a pretty small polling number when comparing to a population of over 300 million individuals.

      • 2 votes
      #1.38 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:17 PM EDT
      cowboygrandpa

      #1.37:

      Pat,

      Actually leaving it the way it is, is good. It shows the lack of difference between the non believing conservative and the supposed believing conservatives.

      Thank you for helping to prove the point a little more clearly.

      • 2 votes
      #1.39 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:18 PM EDT
      Pat N

      Oh and PatN, your link was from the WJS (wall street journal) which is notoriously right leaning politically.

      Did you even bother to READ it, DaMamma? Obviously not. It cited GALLUP within the article. It wasn't a WSJ Poll. Had you read it...you would know that. But then, I'm used to Viners purposely not clicking on links that might shatter their version of reality..no matter how skewed that version may be.

      • 2 votes
      #1.40 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:20 PM EDT
      Pat N

      Actually leaving it the way it is, is good. It shows the lack of difference between the non believing conservative and the supposed believing conservatives.

      How do you figure? Your entire post was based on religious principle. Now your argument is..."Well.....since I can't come up with a legitimate argument for a non-christian conservative, I'm just gonna make believe that they secretly believe all of the tripe I wrote in 1.28"? Really? Wow. That's rich.

      • 3 votes
      #1.41 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:22 PM EDT
      NiteOwlett

      Pat N.

      If you want to make blanket statements out of my reply, I would say this article contains holes. If parts of it are not accurate, then, yes this article is baseless. Condemning a deduction for contributions would lower the rate people contribute, YES, human nature. Why mess with that premise? If nothing else, our tax codes have had a way of guiding investing, spending, etc. and I do not have a problem with that as long as the outcome is good for America.

      Putting all of our hopes and aspirations on private participation is pie in the sky. America has become the MOST successful of all free countries in many areas considering our size. Why mess with success??

      • 1 vote
      #1.42 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:24 PM EDT
      ndeepnow

      At this moment we do need government to help take care of people, but we should be working away around that. We need to start taking care of each other. we are Americans. Step up to the plate Americans. Lets show our Government Lets show the World we can do anything. that we are Americans. Take care of a neighbor, but don't be scared to ask them to do something for you. SCRATCH EACH OTHERS BACK

      • 1 vote
      #1.43 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:41 PM EDT
      NiteOwlett

      ndeepnow: I think this is how it is working today. If you don't have a neighbor that CAN help, we have our government as a last resort.

      • 1 vote
      #1.44 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:43 PM EDT
      Pat N

      I think this is how it is working today. If you don't have a neighbor that CAN help, we have our government as a last resort.

      I think a lot of whether or not a neighbor has the capacity to help lies largely with the fact that many people under 35 or so think we live in a disposable society. I volunteer at a shelter and it floors me how many women don't have a clue as to how to mend a pair of pants or let out a hem. These are certainly things one neighbor can do for another that costs precisely ZERO.

      Same goes for cooking.

      • 1 vote
      #1.45 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:09 PM EDT
      ndeepnow

      Pat -- I have agreed with everything you have said. The government wants more taxes to just spend more money. we are 14 trillion in debt now. Do Americans have a great life style. I say to the rest of the world yes, but is it 14 trillion dollars BETTER??? Also at what point does our government go under and when it does do you believe they will dismantle or do you believe they will just take some things away. Like money, food, water, electricity and so on.

      Government handouts have made this nation weaker not stronger.

      • 1 vote
      #1.46 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:47 AM EDT
      ndeepnow

      I believe cowboy is one of those social justice Christians.

      Cowboy everything comes from Jesus. When someone else wants to take credit for it then it is going against his word.

      • 1 vote
      #1.47 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:49 AM EDT
      cowboygrandpa

      ndeepnow:

      Sigh ;~(( ;~((

      Social justice ?? I weep for the wealthy who think that their wealth help them when they deny their love of it. I pray for them as well as the poor. I hope for the light to enter their darkness and and light their path instead of them stumbling along.

      You think I wish to see people suffer no matter who they are ??

      I could easily attack you. But why ?? Then the enemy of God has us both fighting and neither accomplishing what God has put us to do.

      I'm tired of the defense of wealth by those who think wealth equals God's approval of their lifestyle.

      We will all know when we reach Him and He rewards or sends us away.

      • 3 votes
      #1.48 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:36 PM EDT
      ndeepnow

      LOL you just funny now. I can't even take you serious.

      • 1 vote
      #1.49 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 4:11 PM EDT
      cowboygrandpa

      ndeepnow:

      It is you we can not take seriously.

      Not as a Christian anyway.

      • 2 votes
      #1.50 - Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:18 AM EDT
      ndeepnow

      At least we see eye to eye on something.

      • 1 vote
      #1.51 - Sat Oct 29, 2011 9:50 AM EDT
      pinkcap

      Paying taxes has nothing to do with being a Christian. What you are advocating is that it is our Christian duty to have more money taken from us to have the government use it to feed the poor. There is nothing in the bible to support that position.

      It is not our Christian duty to have more taxes taken from us, but it is our duty to take care of those less fortunate than ourselves. No one likes taxes and everyone would like to take home more money each week. The difference between you and I is that every time I think about how much of my money is taken out in taxes, I realize how lucky I am that I still have enough money left that allows me to live in a nice house and have food on the table. Many people don't even have that. It is our Christian duty to take care of the poor and sick and taxes that go towards helping them are one way to do this. Soup kitchens are great, but it doesn't solve the poor's plight. Good schools and educational grants are a great first step to help the poor get out of poverty. I would rather my tax dollars go towards teacher's salaries and schools than a war or defense spending. I like to call this attitude 'loving my neighbor.' Maybe it should have been a commandment - oh that's right - it is a commandment.

      • 4 votes
      #1.52 - Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:04 PM EDT
      Reply
      Dean Moriarty

      I'd rather have separation of church and state. Christians can help the poor without government interference.

      • 3 votes
      Reply#2 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:03 AM EDT
      ambivalent

      Most Christians today are having a hard enough time keeping their own churches open. We lose jobs too. This is about government policy, not church and state.

      • 9 votes
      #2.1 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:48 AM EDT
      NiteOwlett

      Our government provides an INCENTIVE for charitable contributions, not interference.

      Not everyone is Christian, BTW.

      • 2 votes
      #2.2 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:27 PM EDT
      Reply
      teabagged

      I'd rather have separation of church and state.

      So Roe vs Wade is okay!

      Christians can help the poor without government interference.

      Well that let's you off the hook entirely. How utterly un-Christlike of you!

      "Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, that you do unto me." (Matthew 25:40)

      • 11 votes
      Reply#3 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:18 AM EDT
      Dean Moriarty

      I'm not a Christian and I don't like them using their religion to steal my money.

      • 2 votes
      #3.1 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:25 AM EDT
      Susan-3647822

      That's fine Dean. Then they need to stop using "Christian Values" to get elected. I guess you don't vote republican, do you?

      • 12 votes
      #3.2 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:30 AM EDT
      Pat N

      I'm not a Christian and I don't like them using their religion to steal my money.

      You are the first person I've ever met that's opposed to the work the Red Cross does. I think the people of Joplin, MO may disagree with you.

      • 3 votes
      #3.3 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:56 AM EDT
      ambivalent

      I love the Red Cross of today and am a certified shelter manager. They do wonderful work individually and in a disaster situation.

      • 5 votes
      #3.4 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:38 AM EDT
      Pat N

      I agree, ambivalent. They are far more effective than FEMA or any other government run agency, IMO. People seem to forget about them when they engage in faith-based charity bashing that seems so prevalent in this thread.

      Thanks for all you do with the Red Cross. It's a great organization.

        #3.5 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:45 AM EDT
        NiteOwlett

        The Red Cross is able to gather the money VERY effectively but distribution of those goods and MAJOR restorations and recovery is very effectively distributed by a FEMA, or government type of program, if managed properly.

        Bashing government is more aligned with shooting oneself in the foot. WE THE PEOPLE are government and we have effectively elected each and every participant, short of the appointed positions, which are overseen by elected officials.

        We need to support, make better, participate in a better government, not tossing out the baby with the bathwater.

        • 4 votes
        #3.6 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:19 PM EDT
        ambivalent

        I agree.

        • 2 votes
        #3.7 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:34 PM EDT
        daMamma

        Where exactly do you find any information that the American Red Cross is a "Christian" organization? I find no such information in my search of its history.

        • 1 vote
        #3.8 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:34 AM EDT
        Pat N

        The symbol that the Red Cross uses is known as the "Mark of Cain" or the "Templar's Cross".

        In Ancient Sumer, those who wore the “Mark of Cain”, showed they were protected by the “Lord” from the “wrath” of “Jehovah”. It symbolized they had left the spiritual path in life of taking from others and had embraced the path of giving to others.

          #3.9 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:43 AM EDT
          Pat N

          Here are some other faith based charities that I guess are "bad" because they're faith based. Who knew?

          Girls and Boys Town
          Father Flanagan’s Boys’ Home, known as the original Boys Town, is a leader in the treatment and care of "at-risk" boys and girls and in the research and development of programs to meet the ever-changi... [read more]

          Habitat for Humanity International
          Habitat for Humanity International is a nonprofit, nondenominational Christian housing organization. We welcome all people to join us as we build simple, decent, affordable, houses in partnership with... [read more]

          YMCA of the USA
          Together, the nation's more than 2,400 YMCAs are the largest not-for-profit community service organizations in America, working to meet the health and social service needs of 17.9 million men, women a... [read more]

          YWCA of the USA
          Three hundred thirteen YWCAs, united under the umbrella of the YWCA of the U.S.A., make the YWCA movement: the largest provider of shelter services for women and their families in the country; a leade... [read more]

          Compassion International
          Compassion International grew from the desire of one man to help children in need. Rev. Everett Swanson was moved by the plight of Korean orphans as he preached there in the early 1950s. He went on to... [read more]

          Bread for the World
          Celebrating more than 25 years of seeking justice for the world's hungry people, Bread for the World is a Christian voice for ending hunger in the new century. Bread for the World's 46,000 members ... [read more]

            #3.10 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:50 AM EDT
            daMamma

            Why are you on this kick that just because an organization is faith based people would find them "evil"?

            Also, I am still waiting for some documentation that the American Red Cross is a Christian organization.

            History of Switzerland's Flag

            The Red Cross flag

            When the International Committee of the Red Cross as a permanent, neutral institution to take care of military and civil persons wounded or imprisoned in war was founded on the initiative of Henri Dunant (a merchant from Geneva, Switzerland) and swiss general Dufour in 1864, Dufour proposed the reversal of the swiss flag (red cross on white ground) as an emblem. Also the armband traditionally used by swiss troops was reused with inverted colors so that medical personnel in wars is obliged to wear white a armband with a red cross according to the Geneva Conventions The national Red Cross organizations in non-christian countries interpreted the Red Cross as a Christian symbol, however, and replaced it by their own religious symbols (red crescent moon in islamic countries, red david star in Israel). The color red on white background was retained.

            About the International Committee of the Red Cross (from which the American Red Cross developed)
            Nowhere on the entire site does it mention it is based on any religion. As a matter of fact it does not mention religion at all. Other than one brief sentence that states the Red Crescent developed as a symbol because some non-Christian countries mistook the red cross as a Christian symbol.

            So I am very very interested in any documentation that will prove that the American Red Cross is in fact a Christian organization. Please provide your proof.

            Oh, just in case folks got lost: The flag/symbol for the Red Cross is derived from inverting the Swiss flag. The white cross on a red field was reversed to make a red cross on a white field. This became known as an international symbol for medical help. The Red Cross has since expanded well beyond the original scope of helping those wounded on a battle field.

            • 4 votes
            #3.11 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:39 PM EDT
            Pat N

            Why are you on this kick that just because an organization is faith based people would find them "evil"?

            It's been stated so in this very thread! I would invite you to go back and read the posts.

            Also, I am still waiting for some documentation that the American Red Cross is a Christian organization.

            I provided it to you. Post 3.9.

            The European founders of the International Red Cross were indeed, Christian. While the organization itself isn't under the flagship of any particular church (much like Habitat for Humanity) it was indeed founded on Christian principle, by Christians and carries a christian emblem.

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emblems_of_the_International_Red_Cross_and_Red_Crescent_Movement

            Nowhere on the entire site does it mention it is based on any religion. As a matter of fact it does not mention religion at all.

            So? Neither does Habitat for Humanity. And I'm not sure if the Salvation Army does. All your comment does is bolster my statement that it's nonsense to claim that faith based organizations will "only help people who believe like they do" as was stated by another poster.

              #3.12 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:53 PM EDT
              daMamma

              By your reasoning that the founder of Red Cross was Christian, than all secular organizations must therefor also be Christian or whatever religion their founder practiced? Makes no sense whatsoever.

              Your link still does not say that the red cross symbol is a religious based symbol.

              I am now completely done with this particular line of conversation.

              • 4 votes
              #3.13 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:19 PM EDT
              Reply
              JimEdee

              Christians can help the poor without government interference.

              Then shouldn't Corporate America be allowed to work on it's own without government interference? By that I mean "Corporate Welfare". We can bail W.S. out, but can't help the poor...I mean what's wrong with that picture? Why do the ultra rich go to the government for special favors, in the form of tax breaks, shouldn't they be allowed to live without interference from the government?

              I just figure that if we don't want the government to interference in one groups life, then shouldn't it apply to all?


              • 14 votes
              Reply#4 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:33 AM EDT
              Dean Moriarty

              Yes get government out of business. Support Ron Paul he opposed government intervention from day one.

              • 2 votes
              #4.1 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:38 AM EDT
              NiteOwlett

              Yes, and Paul also proposes grandma and grandpa be lacking any public intervention when they are unable to work. How did that work out prior to our Social Security system???

              • 2 votes
              #4.2 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:21 PM EDT
              space guy

              Yes, and Paul also proposes grandma and grandpa be lacking any public intervention when they are unable to work. How did that work out prior to our Social Security system???

              Well, we were certainly not $15 trillion dollars in debt now were we.

              In 1930 when my grandfather died, the Masonic lodge got together and did a house raising for my grandmother to live in.

              That is how it used to work.

              • 2 votes
              #4.3 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:24 PM EDT
              cowboygrandpa

              Jim Edee:

              Christians can help the poor without government interfernce if the darn fool "cc's" would stop interfering and let God work.

              But hey their ideas of Christians are GW Bush, and all of the other pretenders who are in for the power, money and control. Not actually following the way of Christ. What does it matter to them if they have to donate 10% if they make millions off of their false christianity and get to direct money and funds to their other "so called" 'christian" brothers and sisters.

              Then they get to look good and still claim they "good"people.

              How many have been killed by the wars started by Bush ?? How many innocents have killed, how many Christians have lost their lives because of the lies ??

              But hey let the liars continue with their lies. They are fooling God.

              • 3 votes
              #4.4 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:56 PM EDT
              NiteOwlett

              We didn't have over 300 million people in 1930. How many Masonic lodges are there to handle seniors who lost their life savings in today's economy???

              Social Security is STILL not broke.

              • 3 votes
              #4.5 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:14 PM EDT
              space guy

              Social Security is STILL not broke.

              Yes, it is. All that it has in it are IOU's from the government that is itself bankrupt!

              • 1 vote
              #4.6 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:35 PM EDT
              NiteOwlett

              space guy,

              You need to educate yourself more in economics. Perhaps if you watched something other than Fox news you might find a whole new world opening up to you.

              The US government is NOT bankrupt, nor is Social Security paying out more than it collects, YET.

              PROVE ME WRONG. I am disputing YOUR claim.

              • 2 votes
              #4.7 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:02 PM EDT
              space guy

              The US government is NOT bankrupt, nor is Social Security paying out more than it collects, YET.

              Social Security paying out more than it collects, from 2010.

              http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/25/business/economy/25social.html

              If the U.S. government was a family, here is what it's budget would be.

              • U.S. Tax Revenue: $2,170,000,000,000
              • Federal Budget: $3,820,000,000,000
              • New Debt: $1,650,000,000,000
              • National Debt: $14,271,000,000,000
              • Recent Budget Cut: $38,500,000,000

              Remove Eight Zeros and Now it is a Family Budget

              • Annual Family Income: $21,700
              • Money the Family Spent: $38,200
              • New Credit Card Debt: $16,500
              • Outstanding Credit Card Debt: $142,710
              • Total Family Budget Cut: $385

              You were saying? You might want to turn of MSNBC for a while.

              • 2 votes
              #4.8 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:26 PM EDT
              NiteOwlett

              REVENUES vs EXPENDITURES makes SS solvent throughout your example. Picking out line items does not equate to the health of the program.

              How about you wanting to delve more deeply into your responses before you post.

              • 4 votes
              #4.9 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:14 PM EDT
              space guy

              REVENUES vs EXPENDITURES makes SS solvent throughout your example. Picking out line items does not equate to the health of the program.

              Nope, you did not even read the article. SS is paying out more now than it is bringing in, something that you claimed was not happening.

              • 1 vote
              #4.10 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 3:50 PM EDT
              Reply
              ambivalent

              I am a liberal and a Christian. It can be done! When the conservative Christians say the poor and needy should be helped by God I am hoping they mean that the private sector will help them out through corporate donations and individual donations of service and dollars for soup kitchens, shelters, clothing, etc. That is not the case. I served joyfully and sometimes with great difficulty in a soup kitchen and shelter for many years. It was all privately run through donations. However, without a small monthly government check to sustain these poor people, government funded counseling, they would have literally perished, and their children as well. We have a moral obligation to help our own people. Our government policies reflect our own principles, principles that are our strength and power individually, and the strength and power of our government.

              • 20 votes
              Reply#5 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:11 AM EDT
              ERich-356044

              If I could vote up your comment more than once, I would!

              I am a liberal christian myself... (we've had this conversation before my wonderful friend) and I truly believe that we as a nation have a moral obligation to help our people and be good stewards of the planet. The truly conservative christians don't seem to be able to grasp the importance of either.

              • 8 votes
              #5.1 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:26 AM EDT
              ambivalent

              Thanks, ERich.

              • 5 votes
              #5.2 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:19 AM EDT
              daMamma

              If I could vote up your comment more than once, I would!

              Ditto that statement!

              While I am most certainly not Christian, I totally agree that we do need to be good stewards. Both to our fellow human beings, and our planet. (which does include all the other living things on it)

              We give what we can, where we can. Time, money, goods, services, whatever we've got. To both secular and religious based organizations. Sometimes it is not much at all, but is all we've got. Even a little bit can make a big difference. I've taught my children to do these things too. We all prefer the quiet of being behind the scenes and fairly unknown rather than the action of out front. Public recognition is no where near as much fun as that good feeling deep inside one's own heart just from knowing we've made somebody's day easier, someone's trouble lighter. Even if only for a little while.

              As much as I wish we could accomplish all things without any kind of government help, the reality is, we just can't. We really do need those government programs.

              • 6 votes
              #5.3 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:31 PM EDT
              ambivalent

              While I am most certainly not Christian

              You kind of sound like one, are you sure?

              • 2 votes
              #5.4 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:03 PM EDT
              daMamma

              Quite sure ambivalent.
              : )

              One does not need to be Christian to live by the Golden Rule, have ethics, morals, empathy, integrity or care about others. To care about Humanity in general, the planet and all living creatures or even justice.

              Christianity does not own the corner on that market, although some may claim it is so.

              Even so, there are times that I will fall on my face and act like a complete heathen, major jerk or on rare occasions a rotten little b!tch. (we all have our 'treasured' moments!) LOL

              • 3 votes
              #5.5 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:48 AM EDT
              Reply
              Mary-471639

              they all said the poor and needy should be taken care of by the individuals and not by the government funded programs.

              And yet their anti abortion programs, enacted into laws, can only be enforced thru government funding. Though they may contribute to someones financial stress (the poor) with their own morally enacted, government funded laws, they victimize them further thru defunding of social programs.

              • 12 votes
              Reply#6 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 6:13 AM EDT
              Fred Evil

              I agree, when will he get started? Do we have a timetable? Why has he been slacking up to now?

              I say we try a camel->eye of a needle demonstration at EVERY church, and see if any of them get the point.

              • 5 votes
              Reply#7 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:34 AM EDT
              Susan-3647822

              I would like to know when the accumulation of money became the measure of morality.

              • 9 votes
              Reply#8 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:35 AM EDT
              ambivalent

              To my knowledge it never has.

              • 9 votes
              #8.1 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 7:43 AM EDT
              UNA_Lion

              Paul agrees:

              1 Timothy 6

              6 Yet true godliness with contentment is itself great wealth. 7 After all, we brought nothing with us when we came into the world, and we can’t take anything with us when we leave it. 8 So if we have enough food and clothing, let us be content.

              9 But people who long to be rich fall into temptation and are trapped by many foolish and harmful desires that plunge them into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. And some people, craving money, have wandered from the true faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows.

              • 4 votes
              #8.2 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:10 AM EDT
              Reply
              Vlad's dog

              The term Christian conservative has always bothered me. I believe they are conservatives who use the word Christianity as a shield to hide their own faults, then they bash others and point fingers as the moral judge and jury of society.

              Instead of looking inward, they look outward to avoid looking at themselves as part of the problem.

              Good piece today CBG.

              • 10 votes
              Reply#9 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:20 AM EDT
              Rutabaga RayDeleted
              Vlad's dog

              If you look at my post RR, I am not talking about all Christians.

              • 6 votes
              #9.2 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:16 AM EDT
              daMamma

              I don't doubt these folks view themselves as Christians, because they are Christian. I don't doubt they see themselves as "Good" Christians. However horrid some of the behavior some of these folks exhibit.

              Instead of looking inward, they look outward to avoid looking at themselves as part of the problem.

              That in a nutshell is it. While I've met very few Christians that actually actively try to live both their private and public lives according to the lessons taught by Jesus, I'm sure the majority must be this way.

              Its just the more wrong headed some folks are, the louder they get. We just get to see that loud, obnoxious, ugly far more often than the good.

              • 2 votes
              #9.3 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:49 PM EDT
              cowboygrandpa

              Vlad's dog:

              The conservatives seem to always want to identify themselves with that word in the same sentence as Christian.

              I prefer to say I'm a Christian. Now as part of of describing my beliefs I have to say I'm not a "conservative christian". I wonder if Jesus Christ looks at them and says " No you're not"

              • 4 votes
              #9.4 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:10 PM EDT
              ambivalent

              Well, that would not be for us to determine. We don't judge when it comes to spirituality. I save that for politics, lol.

              • 2 votes
              #9.5 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:40 PM EDT
              Vlad's dog

              Looks like rutabaga was a re-reg. Not surprised.

              • 2 votes
              #9.6 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:30 PM EDT
              Reply
              Hiram-1381633

              I agree and disagree,

              Can God use the government to take care of the poor? Absolutely, He is God and will use what ever means He wants to accomplish His work. I pray daily that we get people in power who understand what it means to walk in Christ's path and that follow the two greatest commandments. Love God and love your neighbor.

              The government ultimately according to scripture is not the vessel by which the poor are to be cared for. The government is in place to punish evil and reward good, it is the peace and order keeper of God. It can also if given enough power become a great burden on the people as God told the nation of Israel when they demanded a king. When the government becomes the care taker and the provider the people turn away from God and to the government, replacing a trust in God with a trust in government. Through our scripture the people who should be responsible for the poor and needy has been the people, the community, the church ( not just the building the church is the people). In Acts men of integrity were given the task of caring for the poor and the widows (Deacons). In the Old Testament and New, farmers were to leave something in their fields for the poor to gleam. It is not the governments biblical responsibility it is ours as followers of Christ as children of God to take care of our brothers and sisters.

              Instead of pointing fingers at the government and saying "How dare you take form the poor." Perhaps we should all look in the mirror and ask "What have you done lately to easy their suffering?" It starts with asking God to show you where you can help, it starts with me and you.

              H

              • 4 votes
              Reply#10 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 9:27 AM EDT
              cowboygrandpa

              Hiram:

              The perfect Government is He who came in His Name. In my humble opinion.

              While I do not say that the government should be fully responsible, I think that God blesses those who do His work and strengthens them. Having seen the falling apart of America through the last 45 years. I just have to wonder how much more greed He will tolerate from us.

              I see the attacks on the poor, elderly and needy as ways for the greedy to try and privatise and exclude who they will from receiving the help they need. While claiming it is in the Name of God.

              Remember that the coming of the anti-christ is brought about by the perils faced with an economy that won't respond, a world at war, multiple world events that men cannot solve.

              If we turn away from allowing our government to help we are opening the door for the one world government to step in take over. We already have multinational corporations that are taking the wealth of this nation away. We have politicians of all parties bowing to their corporate masters and making laws that protect the multinationals while taking the rights of the citizens to protect the freedoms of America.

              The supreme courts recognizing businesses as individuals with rights, and opening the door to campaign funding from multinational corporations.

              The government after all is supposed to be of the people for the people by the people. Not of the corporations, for the corporations, by the corporations.

              • 3 votes
              #10.1 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:28 PM EDT
              ambivalent

              Yeah, worldly stuff gets really dirty.

              • 2 votes
              #10.2 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:41 PM EDT
              Hiram-1381633

              The perfect Government is He who came in His Name. In my humble opinion.

              I agree with you whole hearted on this statement. You are right the government has been taken over by the elite and this applies across the board Democrat or Republican, Conservative or Liberal. You are also right when you wisely state that God blesses those that do His work. He always has, the point is that we have moved away from His plan. The government was never suppose to care for the poor or needy, that was the responsibility of the people. When you start to take things into your own hands and ignore what God has already put in place you end up with the mess we have today. You end up withthe government replacing God as the peoples idol as they turn to the State for help instead of God. The State then becomes even more powerful as the people become dependant upon it more and more. The more powerful the State becomes the more oppressive it gets.

              H

              • 2 votes
              #10.3 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:51 PM EDT
              Reply
              Rutabaga RayDeleted
              UNA_Lion

              I noticed one constant running throughout the comments of the "conservative christians" they all said the poor and needy should be taken care of by the individuals and not by the government funded programs.

              Then you may have misunderstood what was written. Jesus said nothing about government-funded programs for the poor during his ministry, but he rather taught that those who follow him should give liberally to the poor. That is not the same as asserting that government-funded programs for the poor should not exist.

              • 3 votes
              Reply#12 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:07 AM EDT
              sbstarlite

              Thank you for telling us what jesus said. I take it you were there? Just who are you and the other wackos to deliver a message that has been distorted for over 2000 years if ever said at all. I for one am fed up with those who seem to hear the voice of G*d on a daily basis to justify their poor choice of word or action.

                #12.1 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:21 AM EDT
                UNA_Lion

                Just who are you and the other wackos...

                Personal attacks against fellow Viners? Reported accordingly as inflammatory. Do you really feel the need to insult others in order to make your point?

                As to the voice of God, it is the Bible we followers of Christ follow, vice the teachings of those who claim to speak for him. Note that I quote only the Bible when writing of what Jesus taught.

                • 2 votes
                #12.2 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:31 AM EDT
                sbstarlite

                Frankly una...it was not meant as a personal attack even though you are insulting us by quoting from a book of fiction and calling it reality. When our daily news cannot accurately report a story of five minutes ago, how can anyone expect the bible to have any accuracy when it was written...my man....decades after the supposed event.

                If it is what you believe, i respect that but in this case you are adding your own spin just to make the words palatable. Are your sure the bible is relating what jesus taught....or what man said the taught??

                  #12.3 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:50 AM EDT
                  cowboygrandpa

                  U L:

                  Ahhhh, shall we quibble about what is said or not ?? How many conservative Christians try to say that since Christ did not say that the government should help the poor, that the government should not help the poor ??

                  I think Jesus Christ knew that those who follow Him would know in their hearts what He requires of them.

                  Joseph told his brothers what you meant for evil God used for good-paraphrased-.

                  • 2 votes
                  #12.4 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:52 PM EDT
                  UNA_Lion

                  cowboygrandpa, so you've no issueon your thread with personal attacks like those in Post 12.1? If that is the case, then it is most disappointing, and I'll not remain in a discussion wherein such third-grade activity is tolerated by the very person charged with policing it. I've placed that particular Viner on IGNORE, until he or she demonstrates a capability to forego such juvenile behavior.

                  Fix it, or I'm de-tracking this thread that otherwise showed promise.

                    #12.5 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:11 PM EDT
                    cowboygrandpa

                    U L:

                    12.5

                    Report the attacks to News Vine and allow them to do what they are charged to do.

                    I have been attacked by many of the right wingers. I do not like it, but they have a right to voice their personal beliefs, if we are to be able to discuss things.

                    I do not agree with his assesment at all.

                    Just as I don't agree with attacks on me or others who don't hold conservative views about life and Christianity.

                    I speak up and shake the dust from their comments off my feet.

                    • 3 votes
                    #12.6 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:19 PM EDT
                    sbstarlite

                    Losing una lion is not earth shaking. He/she is too immersed in the fictitious word of the bible to absorb rationality. It has to be his way or the highway by his own words. Perhaps that is wrong with the christian fan club of today in a nutshell. They have no room for tolerance because they are brainwashed enough to accept the bible as an actual account with verbatim quotes. Needless to say dealing with this mentality...even at his "third grade level" is impossible. :et him take his bag of marbles and play elsewhere where his feelings won't be hurt by the truth.

                      #12.7 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:35 PM EDT
                      UNA_Lion

                      Understood. Detracking.

                        #12.8 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:36 PM EDT
                        Reply
                        Tyler Durden-330839

                        God did not show during WW2.

                        Dorme bene.

                        • 2 votes
                        Reply#13 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:13 AM EDT
                        Fed up with Republicans

                        GOD hasn't been back to Earth since he rested on the 7th day.

                        Every since then it has always been some man claiming that he talked to GOD or GOD said this or GOD said that.

                        I have never read in any Bible about what GOD did on the eighth day have any of you?

                        • 6 votes
                        #13.1 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:21 AM EDT
                        ndeepnow

                        Jesus -- who is GOD in the flesh was here just a few thousand years ago. He will be back soon.

                        • 1 vote
                        #13.2 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:32 AM EDT
                        Fed up with Republicans

                        Jesus is not GOD that is the biggest crock I have ever heard

                        He is either GOD's son or the son of GOD

                        • 1 vote
                        #13.3 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:08 PM EDT
                        ndeepnow

                        John

                        1 (A)In the beginning was (B)the Word, and the Word was (C)with God, and (D)the Word was god. 2 [a]He was in the beginning with God.

                        14 And (R)the Word (S)became flesh, and [k](T)dwelt among us, and (U)we saw His glory, glory as of [l]the only begotten from the Father, full of (V)grace and (W)truth.

                          #13.4 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:16 AM EDT
                          Reply
                          aqua surf-1123675

                          Is that where that old saw comes from-"God helps those who help themselves"? That always meant to me that God, if he exists, isn't going to help you. So why in the world would anyone kow-tow to a god who says basically, F U? Still, a lot of these churches do help the poor; they are always having bake sales and fund drives and they bring canned goods to the church to be distributed. Just because I don't believe in God as such doesn't mean I'm a Christophobe.

                            Reply#14 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:34 AM EDT
                            UNA_Lion

                            Is that where that old saw comes from-"God helps those who help themselves"?

                            That statement is found nowhere in Scripture. It is man-made wisdom, and therefore foolishness.

                            • 4 votes
                            #14.1 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:41 AM EDT
                            jmorris

                            aqua surf-1123675

                            Is that where that old saw comes from-"God helps those who help themselves"?

                            Wrong gods, it comes fro the Greeks

                            The phrase "God helps those who help themselves" is a popular motto which emphasizes the importance of self-initiative.

                            The phrase originated in ancient Greece, occurring as the moral to one of Aesop's Fables, and later in the great tragedy authors of ancient Greek drama. It has been commonly attributed to Benjamin Franklin, however the modern English wording appears earlier in Algernon Sidney's work.

                            It is mistaken by many to be a Bible quote, however the phrase does not occur in the Bible. Some Christians have criticized it as being against the Bible's message of God's grace.

                            • 1 vote
                            #14.2 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:06 PM EDT
                            Reply
                            lost in America-3937007

                            Grandpa, how very judmental you can be. Up until this point I had considered you very articulate about your faith and beliefs, but you have ruined that perception. This article is about politics, not God and to say otherwise is downright deception. You are right, the Bible says nothing about not helping the poor through politics, but you know that. But to say that Christian Republicans love their money too much to help the poor is just politics. It is like saying that Democrats can't be Christians because they are pro=choice and gay marriage. All Republicans are not the same and do not hold the same values. All Democrats are not the same and do not hold the same values. This article is just political and judgemental at it's worse.

                            See ya at the polls.

                            • 1 vote
                            Reply#15 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 11:49 AM EDT
                            cowboygrandpa

                            lost in America:

                            #15.

                            You are right this article is about politics. It is about the politics of the greedy conservatives who claim to be "christians" denying the right of people to be helped by the government through the use of taxes.

                            It is listed under politics for that reason. If they want to bring their lies to Christianity I'm going to call them out on it !!! Look at the campaigns the Republicans use. Were Christians so vote for us because we follow Christ. They are using Christ for their political gain and I'm tired of the lies !!!

                            Yes I know the Bible does not say anything against helping the poor through politics. So why do the Republicans claim it does ??

                            I prefer to keep politics out of Christianity, and place Christianity in politics. In other words Christ is not political. He is Christ the Son of God and is above the politics of man, so don't use Him for political gain. If one is a Christian by all means live it and let the light of Christ shine through. Stop lying about being a Christian when they ar CINO's Christians In Name Only.

                            In other words don't try to tell the people Jesus Christ was a conservative when He wasn't, don't try to tell the people He was a liberal when He wasn't. He is the Son of God our Savior. He is not a politician but He can work through politicians of either party, He can also use politicians to show who is not of Him. There are those in all parties that He uses to do this.

                            Yes I can bring a bright light on a subject. I think that is why God uses me sometimes.

                            • 2 votes
                            #15.1 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:43 PM EDT
                            daMamma

                            I did not see cowboygrandpa as being judgmental in this article. Calling a spade a spade is not being judgmental. It is simply pointing out a reality.

                            He's also right in saying that politics and religion should not be mixed. To do so corrupts and ultimately destroys both.

                            • 3 votes
                            #15.2 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 12:59 PM EDT
                            lost in America-3937007

                            Maybe I misunderstand your point, but it appears to me that you are judging Christian conservatives on the basis of the republican political agenda. I think both sides have gotten way off base.

                            As I said, I don't believe Christian Democrats are for abortion and gay marriage, nor do I believe that the Democratic agenda is about helping the poor and downtrodden. Political parties and Christianity should not be mixed. It mudddies the principles of Christianity.(I know the political parties keep bringing it up) But we as Christians do not have to, the only agenda I support is the Lord's.

                            Just because as a voter I believe Obama's plan is out of line does not mean that I am against the government helping the poor.

                            • 1 vote
                            #15.3 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:49 PM EDT
                            cowboygrandpa

                            lost in America:

                            #15.3

                            I don't believe Obama is helping us either, and that is not the point at all.

                            When Christians align themselves with political parties they become immersed in the mud of the party as well.

                            The Republican party has been against helping the needy with government programs for as long as I can remember. When the conservative Christians align themselves with that, I have a problem with their bringing Christ into what I believe He would be against.

                            That does not mean that I see the government as a benefactor to be worshipped, but as a last ditch response to the hardness of the hearts of many of all parties.

                            • 2 votes
                            #15.4 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:07 PM EDT
                            lost in America-3937007

                            GC, I hope you don't mind if I shorten your name, seems odd a grandma calling someone grandpa, I think I understand what you are saying. My plolitical ideals do not align totally with either party. I think that I object to being called a RWNJ, because I am not, so I do get a little sensitive when I am lumped in with a group of people that call themselves conservative Christians who do not share my political or theological beliefs. Let us stand together for Jesus and try to vote accordingly. An earlier article you wrote expressed my feeling exactly. We have let the politicians make decisions for us too long and they have decided to support their agenda and for themselves.

                            • 1 vote
                            #15.5 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 5:18 PM EDT
                            Reply
                            Pat N

                            He's also right in saying that politics and religion should not be mixed. To do so corrupts and ultimately destroys both.

                            So you believe the liberal OWS activists should not seek assistance from the christian Red Cross should freezing temperatures cause massive hypothermia this winter?

                            • 2 votes
                            Reply#16 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:09 PM EDT
                            ambivalent

                            I am really concerned about that. Our New York nights are going below freezing this week. I hope they can keep warm.

                            • 4 votes
                            #16.1 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:44 PM EDT
                            cowboygrandpa

                            I'd give them some coats and blankets. But then again that is what I do personally.

                            • 4 votes
                            #16.2 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:11 PM EDT
                            Pat N

                            I hope you have several thousand coats and blankets laying around, grandpa. Because your drumbeat that 'politics and religion shouldn't mix' would indicate that you don't think the OWSer's should take coats, blankets, food or medical care from any faith based charity that might offer them.

                            • 2 votes
                            #16.3 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:57 PM EDT
                            Jeff-3469909

                            They do not represent the federal govt, therefore politics and religion aren't mixing. Dilemma solved.

                            • 2 votes
                            #16.4 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:06 PM EDT
                            Pat N

                            They do not represent the federal govt, therefore politics and religion aren't mixing. Dilemma solved.

                            Incorrect. OWS is a political movement and is being funded by the likes of MoveOn.org and George Soros. If you don't want "politics and religion to mix"...then you shouldn't want them to take blankets and coats from faith based organizations.

                              #16.5 - Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:44 AM EDT
                              Reply
                              David-1830107

                              Jesus would teach a man to fish. Not take it from another man and give it to him for free.

                              • 1 vote
                              #17 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:29 PM EDT
                              ambivalent

                              That would be Maimonides. 8 steps of giving. Didn't Christ say, and I paraphrase here, "If a man asks for your shirt give him your coat too." ?

                              • 5 votes
                              #17.1 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:46 PM EDT
                              David-1830107

                              No Idea Im an Atheist. But I do know that you should teach someone to hunt for themselves.

                              • 1 vote
                              #17.2 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:54 PM EDT
                              cowboygrandpa

                              David:

                              #17.

                              How much has God charged you to live here ?? Or did He give you the breath and life free of charge ??

                              People charge you for things.

                              God gives it to you.

                              • 3 votes
                              #17.3 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:10 PM EDT
                              ambivalent

                              Well, it is silly to just pray for fish without going to the water with a net. Sometimes David, we find those who are simply not capable, for one reason or another, to fend completely for themselves. They too are our brothers and sisters (whether we like it or not). We have to help them get along and give them work too to give them self respect. I think that is what Obama is trying to do with his American Jobs Bill.

                              • 5 votes
                              #17.4 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 2:11 PM EDT
                              Fed up with Republicans

                              Jesus fed thousands for free at the Sermon on the Mount

                              Why do you people lie on and about what Jesus would do or would not do.

                              All any of you can claim is what you have been told that he did or has done.

                              None of you know the man personally to really speak authoritatively as to who he is or what he will or won't do.

                              None of you are 2000 years old, and none of you were alive when he allegedly walked on this earth.

                              • 2 votes
                              #17.5 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:11 PM EDT
                              David-1830107

                              He sure did with magic right? But he def would of taught someone to fend for themselves. Not leech off everyone else.

                                #17.6 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:13 PM EDT
                                Fred Evil

                                Jesus would teach a man to fish. Not take it from another man and give it to him for free.

                                You haven't the foggiest blue fart of an idea what jesus would do...

                                • 1 vote
                                #17.7 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:20 PM EDT
                                ambivalent

                                Heresy!!

                                  #17.8 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:33 PM EDT
                                  daMamma

                                  He also said to give to the poor, take care of the sick, visit those imprisoned, to help those less fortunate, if a man asks for your robe, give him your coat also. And a few other things along this line.

                                  In order to "teach a man to fish" as you say, one must first give the man a pole or net. Oh, and it helps if there are some "fish" to begin with.

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #17.9 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:43 PM EDT
                                  Pat N

                                  In order to "teach a man to fish" as you say, one must first give the man a pole or net.

                                  And that's fine. What's not fine is giving him a new pole every week for 99 weeks and then telling him: "We gave you your 99 poles, taught you nothing, didn't help you improve yourself and now you're on your own". That is the governments definition of 'charity'.

                                    #17.10 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:46 PM EDT
                                    ambivalent

                                    What the heck did he do with all those poles? LOL

                                    • 4 votes
                                    #17.11 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 4:07 PM EDT
                                    daMamma

                                    Sure you can give fishing poles to guys all day long. But if you don't show them where the water is, and how to use the pole, what you ultimately have are a bunch of guys with kindling.
                                    LOL

                                    It helps too, if there is actually some fish in that water.

                                    • 3 votes
                                    #17.12 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 11:53 AM EDT
                                    Pat N

                                    Sure you can give fishing poles to guys all day long. But if you don't show them where the water is, and how to use the pole, what you ultimately have are a bunch of guys with kindling

                                    Which is precisely why I have a problem with the government being in the charity business.

                                    I'm sure that you caught that my analogy was related to UI. (99 "poles" = 99 UI checks). Our governments version of "helping" someone is to send them a check for a while...barely enough to survive on...not teach them any useful skills and then eventually take away the "pole".

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #17.13 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:11 PM EDT
                                    daMamma

                                    Provide jobs or training for something available. Complaining about UI, which employees also contribute to is not a help. Suggesting people work for minimum wage, which doesn't pay the bills is not the answer either. More often than not folks get turned down for these jobs anyway because they are considered over qualified.

                                    Not to mention that many employers will not hire someone that is currently out of work. They are looking for employees that are switching jobs.

                                    Come up with something constructive is the only viable choice. It is also the only choice those that would prefer to complain also prefer not to choose.

                                    • 3 votes
                                    #17.14 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:07 PM EDT
                                    Pat N

                                    Provide jobs or training for something available.

                                    Ummmm....I do. My very living (and on straight commission) is centered around helping people get jobs. Which makes me wonder why our government can pull the same thing off if I can.

                                    Not to mention that many employers will not hire someone that is currently out of work.

                                    That's pure BS. I placed a Dispatcher 3 days ago that's been out of work since June. In fact, I would say at least 50% of the people I assist are out of work. Hiring authorities aren't stupid. They see the unemployment numbers and know what the economy is like. They understand that there are gems out there that are currently unemployed. It has everything to do with how well a candidate interviews, how much genuine interest they show in the position and what their skillset is and vert little to do with whether or not they are currently employed.

                                    Come up with something constructive is the only viable choice. It is also the only choice those that would prefer to complain also prefer not to choose.

                                    How laughable. Shame on me for suggesting the government should quit destroying the dignity of these people by giving them barely enough to survive and instead, cut the number of weeks they provide benefits and use the money they save to actually TEACH people something. Put them through certification courses. Teach them how to write an effective resume. Get them into job placement programs. Teach them effective interview techniques.

                                    If a private charity threw a can of soup at someone and them said "You're on your own"...you'd be livid that they didn't 'help' the person get back on their feet. Yet you think it's just peachy when the federal government does the same thing.

                                      #17.15 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:25 PM EDT
                                      space guy

                                      Provide jobs or training for something available.

                                      There are plenty of jobs available for those with skills in manufacturing. Tens of thousands of those jobs are open. There is also plenty of money available for retraining for those who wish to do it.

                                      http://www.bizjournals.com/washington/news/2011/10/17/600000-manufacturing-jobs-unfilled.html

                                      This article is from last WEEK

                                      U.S. manufacturing companies have as many as 600,000 jobs that they cannot find workers with the proper skills to fill, according to a survey by Deloitte and the Manufacturing Institute.

                                      The survey found 5 percent of current manufacturing jobs are unfilled due to lack of qualified candidates, 67 percent of manufacturers have a moderate to severe shortage of qualified workers, and 56 percent expect the shortage to increase in the next three to five years.

                                      "These unfilled jobs are mainly in the skilled production category — positions such as machinists, operators, craft workers, distributors and technicians," said Emily DeRocco, president of the Manufacturing Institute, part of the National Association of Manufacturers in Washington.

                                      "Unfortunately, these jobs require the most training and are traditionally among the hardest manufacturing jobs to find existing talent to fill."

                                      Nearly two in three manufacturing executives surveyed say workforce shortages or skills deficiencies in production rolls are having a significant impact on their ability to expand operations or improve productivity.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      #17.16 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:29 PM EDT
                                      abolish taxes

                                      Yep, looks like Obama is doing a good job. Now the country has to recover from the talent gap that happened after all those people went into Investment Banking and on Wall Street to gamble and get rich because of deregulation. And this is why Clinton has spoken often of federal funding for the training required to fill these jobs which would put people back to work very quickly. Filling these jobs will lead to even more jobs. It's the smart thing to do, before the jobs end up somewhere else.

                                      • 2 votes
                                      #17.17 - Tue Nov 1, 2011 10:42 AM EDT
                                      Reply
                                      Fed up with Republicans

                                      In the book of Ecclesiastes it tells you clearly that men are no better than any other beast:

                                      This is from the Book of Ecclesiastes. 3 Chapter 18-22 verse

                                      "18": I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.

                                      "19": For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.

                                      "20": All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

                                      "21": Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

                                      "22": Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

                                      Those of you that like to imagine that you are better or a higher form of creation are just tricking yourselves.

                                      • 3 votes
                                      Reply#18 - Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:26 PM EDT
                                      lost in America-3937007

                                      sbstarlight, Why would you even be posting on this seed? And why did you attack UL for his beliefs and no one else? He was definitely not the first to post a reponse that referred to Jesus.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      Reply#19 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:04 AM EDT
                                      octavious-8

                                      Can we get a psychiatrist for the disenfranchised right? Their party is now being held hostage by their own people. Man how depressing it must be to be a conservative right now.

                                      • 2 votes
                                      Reply#20 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:52 AM EDT
                                      bluewildcat

                                      as a former sunday school teacher in a very conservative christian religion, I taught that God expects us to help those in need. It would seem to me that christians with the means are to help those who are less fortunate. In a poor economy, it doesnt matter how well intentioned you are you may find yourself struggling to take care of your own family and literally lacking the means to care for others. In that situation, as a Christian, I believe the gov has much greater resources than we individuals and therefore should make efforts to care for those in dire need and no private resources, The fact that anyone is having this argument is a reason to be concerned for the future of all of us.

                                      • 4 votes
                                      Reply#21 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:54 PM EDT
                                      Jeff-3469909

                                      God does have a very nasty habit of not doing anything and when he tries he often completely f*&ks it up. Well except for when it comes to killing people, he's pretty good at that. I think I will rely on government to help me when I need it waaaaay before i rely on god, in fact he is the last thing I would rely on considering no one actually knows if he is there at all.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      Reply#22 - Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:22 PM EDT
                                      suseq1591

                                      Cowboy: for being a christian you sure do a lot of name calling, did you also know that if you call someone a fool that you are in danger of hell fire??? You sure do a lot of stone throwing. I'm am just curious, have you obeyed Acts 2:38. Neither is there salvation in any other for there is none other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. Acts: 4-verse 12.

                                      • 1 vote
                                      Reply#23 - Sat Oct 29, 2011 12:33 AM EDT
                                      cowboygrandpa

                                      suseq:

                                      I have accepted Christ as my Savior, He is my Lord. Yes I admit to having faults.

                                      How is your perfection coming along ?? I stand for what I believe and will say what I believe needs to be said.

                                      If that means that that people get upset because I say they are not acting as Christ called them to act, and therefore are acting wrongly as a Christian. What am I supposed to do ?? Tell them it is okay to try and deceive people into thinking their greed and lies are acceptable ??

                                      These are the same people who have no problem calling homosexuals every rotten thing they can think of, but get their pride hurt when someone tells them they are wrong !!!

                                      Sorry, I have little compassion for those who lie to deceive the uneducated in Christ. I in fact believe in warning them about their folly, and making it clear as to why by His word they are wrong.

                                      If they continue they are in the hands of God's enemy. I have no personal emnity with them. I truly hope they will one day turn from their ways and turn to Christ.

                                      • 3 votes
                                      Reply#24 - Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:34 AM EDT
                                      dekko2

                                      "We are furious that the religious right has made Jesus into a Republican. That's idolatry. To recreate Jesus in your own image rather than allowing yourself to be created in Jesus' image is what's wrong with politics." Rev. Tony Campolo

                                      • 2 votes
                                      Reply#25 - Sat Oct 29, 2011 3:54 PM EDT
                                      octavious-8

                                      May their god forbid they ever find themselves with no: money, home, family, friends. They best never come crawling to me for help. You want to know what I would do for a Christian Conservative if they needed help?.........

                                      I WOULD @!$%#IN' HELP THEM! JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE A HUMAN IN NEED. NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE CHRISTIAN.

                                      LOSER HUMANS. .......classifying everything down to the death of someone for their political affiliation?

                                      Always thinking they are holier than thou! F*@k you Christian Conservatives. You will take my help when your down and out and like it. And.......F*@k your god if he doesn't like my humanity!

                                      • 2 votes
                                      Reply#26 - Tue Nov 1, 2011 7:31 AM EDT
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