When it is one of your grandchildren.

So right on cowboygrandpa. A very wise man who taught me much stated there are more hearts ready for God sliding off a bar stool than in Sunday service. Another mature and real person shared that many of the body of Christ are outside of churches. I would dispute neither statement. When we do not know what to do and cannot find direction for a issue it just gives a Christian a chance to love. You are a rich man in ways that are important. God loves a balance but the one imbalance that is most loved is ,love with no conditions.

Future History:

The world would be a better place without religion .... period.

Of that, I beg to differ, however this is not the seed in which to discuss religion. This seed is really about Cowboy Grandpa coming to grips with his grandson, and facing the whole gay issue on a personal note now, not just in a newspaper or in the neighbors kids, or in a bar he walked into accidentally.
There are many 'Christians' that have the understanding that God is LOVE, and that love needs to be a central example in our lives. Too bad some 'Christians' simply try to play God.

*chuckles* Gloria is right.

But it's funny that someone is dragging intolerant rant into a article about tolerance.

That's okay Wraith - keep burying your head in the sand. That way you will never have to come to grips with your own unspoken intollerance for those who do not bow down to the rules of your God, whose apparent goal is to continue to have a world full of heterosexuals breed itself into extinction, rather than act on the sexuality that is inherent to them.

I have an aunt that is gay. Growing up, the extended family (devout Christians, except for me) mostly suspected she was gay, as she was quite different - and an extremely bitter person. She was bitter because she couldn't understand why the god that she was taught to believe in would have made her different from the rest of the family. She refused to come out until my grandfather died, because his adherence to his faith would have detroyed any relationship that they could have. Now that she is out, and that the rest of her Christian family has struggled to get through their religiously based prejudices against her, she is a very pleasant person, and quite popular with the rest of the family. So go ahead and chuckle in self reighteous indignation, whilst you digest the negative impact that your belief system has on people who were not lucky enough to be born with a sexuality that is condonned by a book authored by your intollerant ancestors, at a time when they were too ignorant to even know what causes pregnancy, disease, or even weather.

Let us remember to keep separate religion and those who use religion to their own selfish and intolerant ends. They are two different things.

That is not really all that difficult to understand.

The books that all Abrahamic religions are based on are filled with intolerance. What is difficult to understand is how those who are good enough people in their heart to not support such intolerance would ever want to be a part of such a culture in the first place. If the national anthem contained lines supporting slavery or calling out homosexuals as abominations, would you stand up and sing it proudly at the ballgame?

Future, see John 8. It is posted at #13 below. Christ criticized the laws of the Pharisees and showed people why those laws should not be followed. If some Christians can not understand why Christ came to the conclusions he did is that enough reason to damn religion altogether. I do not think so.

A quote from Joseph Campbell;

Every religion is true one way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in it's own metaphors, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble.

I am a Buddhist. So, according to you, we should throw Buddhism out the window as well, I suppose.

Christianity, Judaism and Islam are Abrahamic, and Mormons want into this class as well. I personally find nothing offensive about Buddhism, and I fail to see how Buddhism resembles any of the Abrahamic religions. However, consider that anyone who has religion of any sort considers their god(s) to be more important than anything else in the universe. How does something garner so much importance without ever showing signs that it exists? It defies logic while simultaneously promoting dogmatic discrimination.

Here is the path to happiness and peace: Live how you want to live, implement the golden rule in all of your decisions, and forget about the irrelevant words that were written by your ancestors. Those offerings were created in a time that bears no resemblance to today, so they are riddled with behavior that an honest, modern man would consider to be uncitizen-like. Slavery is wrong. Women have rights. Children should be nurtured. How can the 10 commandments not address these critical issues and still be considered relevent?

Wonderfully said and exactly right, cowboy. Each person may be at different places along that path of becoming more filled with Him and less with themselves but that is the journey on which every honest follower finds themselves.

The more you fill yourself with Him, the less room you have for hatred.

That sounds fluffy and inviting, except for one thing: I have no hatred, and I have no God. What do you suppose has filled me up over my lifetime? I am a heterosexual that stands up for those who God calls an abomination - because I know in my heart that it is part of who they are, and that how they conduct their lives has no bearing on mine. I don't need to resolve any inner conflict about the issue of homosexual "imorality", because I don't allow religion and the concept of an absent God to color by ability to be rational and logical about issues such as this. I don't need to forgive my neighbor for being gay any more than I need to forgive my neighbor for being a different ethnicity than me.

That sounds fluffy and inviting, except for one thing: I have no hatred, and I have no God. What do you suppose has filled me up over my lifetime? I am a heterosexual that stands up for those who God calls an abomination - because I know in my heart that it is part of who they are, and that how they conduct their lives has no bearing on mine

Could you extend that same courtesy to cowboygrandpa? How is his faith in God affecting your life? You posts sound bitter about his religion and I can't understand that.

NYP - Look at the title of the article. It takes having a member of his family being afflicted with homosexuality for him to have a second thought about the issue, beyond the contemptuous dogma that has been drilled into his head throughout his life by the administrators of his religion. Read through the article and see how much pain has been filtering through his family because of the issue of homosexuality. If it weren't for his religion, he wouldn't have ever had to think twice about it. Go ahead everyone, and pat yourselves on the backs for your epiphany that it is a good thing accept homosexuals for who they are - just know that we atheists have been doing that all along, because we had no reason not to.

Future History, I understand your views. It is strange to me that you would come to this article and attack the very belief system cowboygrandpa uses to understand what is happening in his family--the very thing that has brought him to an understanding of kindness, love and compassion for his grandson. Your intellectual rigidity ignores the passion with which cowboygrandpa approaches a boy who needs love, protection and family more than anything.

It is clear that your views are important to you. But, rubbing your views in cowboygrandpa's face as he struggles to understand something this monumental in his family's life is dishonorable and simply hurtful. Perhaps such dishonor and attempt to injure a man coming to term with live within his faith is your way but it certainly isn't the right thing to do. And, what ever it is you do believe in doesn't allow you to see that.

just know that we atheists have been doing that all along.....

You speak for all atheists?

Just wow. I'm both humbled and uplifted. You are a good example to the rest of us be we believers or not of what a "Christian" is supposed to look/act like.

I still struggle far too much with pride. Someday I hope I find myself where you are now.

cg - you may be reading what I'm writing, but you certainly aren't comprehending it. I don't hate my ex-wife, no matter how much she trampled on our relationship. I forgave her a long time ago. I don't despise Christians - I hate the game that they are involved in. I am the only atheist in my entire family - do you really think that I despise everyone I am related to? And what is this about anyone who disagrees with me is wrong? I hate brussel sprouts, but I am not concerned if you like brussel sprouts - because brussel sprouts are irrelevant in terms of society. Homosexuality is relevant, and the discriminatory attitude that is fostered by religion is responsible for an enormous amount of family unrest, up to and including suicide.

If faith is what gets you through the day, then more power to you - but don't preach about how faith is what everyone needs, when it is your faith that has caused the conflict within you in the first place. You said it yourself - you used to hate homosexuals. No mature person has any reason to hate another human for what they do in the privacy of their consentual relationship with someone else ... unless it is drilled into your head that your religion sees it as wrong - and I'm sorry, but that is not a legitimate reason - and ultimately it leads to faith-based discrimination. Your faith ended up being both the problem and the solution. Thankfully you came to a reasonable conclusion, but you know very well that you are in the minority when it comes to acceptance of homosexuality from a religious perspective. The bottom line is that your faith is what started the conflict within you in the first place, and it is responsible for most of the homophobia and descrimination against gays that exists today.

cowboygrandpa, Jesus is smiling at you and he knows what you have accomplished.

All the Buddhas smile also.

Let us all pray and hope for the end of suffering for all sentient beings.

Kindness, love and compassion. How simple.

@Future History:

Thank you for illustrating the blinders you were in support of your hatred FH. I am not a Christian, nor am I a theist in any sense. But you naturally assumed otherwise. Want to claim I'm intolerant? Ha.

cg - I must admit - I am both moved confused by your response to me, while being completely repulsed by your responses to others. Not that you are repulsive, but responses that are dripping with words like "rejoice", "Him" (capital H), Path (capital P), and general statements that sound like they belong in a contemporary Christian song are like fingernails on a chalkboard to me. But let's focus on your response to my comment. I apologize if I unwittingly teased out bad childhood memories, but I get the impression that you are confusing homosexuality and child abuse and/or child molestation. These are entirely separate issues. If you are stuck on the premise that these things are related, then we will never be able to debate with one another - because that is pattently false. It's apples and oranges man. If I'm wrong on my presumption about your past, then I apologize - but realize that with your response you have drawn homosexuality into the same arena as rape and child abuse. Generally speaking, domestic violence and alcoholism have no barriers, but homosexuality is not synonymous with child molestation or rape.

However, I'm right there with you about about beating the piss out of anyone who dare harm a child - physically, sexually, emotionally or otherwise. I just don't see the tie with homosexuality. By making a connection there, you are only forcing a stereotype where in does not naturally exist.

As far as rape goes, let's be honest - it's all over the bible. Rape is not about sex, it is about domination - and dominion is a reoccuring theme in scripture, as is the theme of male dominance. When you level the score on page 1 with the assertion that man is created from scratch by God, but woman is but an afterthought made from Adam's spare parts, you immediately establish woman as a subclass of man. Is there any wonder why the 10 commandments (and history in general) fail to recognize woman as man's equal? Should women dare question this arrangement, they are subject to the physical and biblical supriority of their human counterpart. This is obviously a dellusion created by man, and perpetuated by religion. It takes two to continue mankind - a male and a female. Strength should have nothing to do with how it occurs, but the bible is riddled with stories about how mankind is furthered by mans' assertion that women will carry their seed, like it or not.

If you have noticed I do not just speak out against one sin as being more acceptable than another. From a young age I learned that one sin leads to another.

This is a curious statement. It is similar to saying that pot is a gateway drug to heroin, so pot users should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. This may roll off your tongue as easilly as your dogmatic endorsements of Jesus all mighty, but it is reckless as all hell. Secular society recognizes degrees of lawlessness - and it gives opportunities for those who have the capacity to straighten out their future. Your cut-and-dry conclusion leaves little room or reason for self improvement. This is exactly why God and government should have nothing to do with one another - yet it is a battle that seems to never end. Theocracy will never be a part of the future of this great nation - no matter how hard the GOP insists.

If you have noticed I also say thaty if two people want to engage in their sexual activities and no one is hurt or forced and there are no children involved then it is between them. I don't want to know about it.

You killed any positive sentiment that you hoped to imply by adding the last sentence. I don't need to know that my neighbor likes to suck his wife's toes as a precursor to sex - but if I get wind of this information, I may giggle about about his adult perversions - but I would not judge him over it, or insist that I did not want to know this information. It does not impact me - it has nothing to do with me - I would not want him to judge me on what makes my love life tick, so why should I give a rat's ass about what his proclivities are? This goes equally for whether he is sucking his wife's toes, or whether he is engaging another man for intimacy.

I hope you continue to love your grandson - and contrary to your wishes, I hope he DOES turn out to be an atheist with an attitude similar to mine. When you engage those whose opinions are diametrically opposed to yours, you can bring deeper thought into the future path for both of you. It is impossible to please all of the people all of the time, but diplomacy that brings the extremes closer to the middle is not a bad thing. I would appreciate if you could show me that we can reach out and high-five somewhere in the middle by accepting my FR. Take care.

She told me she had known for years, and I told her that I had too. The fact that he had preferred to play with Barbie dolls had been a hint.

Cowboygrandpa, The above two sentences are in your article and they puzzle me.

Could a little child who plays with a Barbie doll be capable of making a "choice" to be gay? Was his attraction to the doll just a part of the way he was created or did his child's mind decide he wanted to live the life of a gay person -- even if he had no earthly idea what that was?

I know this debate rages on and on, neither side giving in to the other. But, when a little child does this, it certainly makes me wonder. What does a child know about such things as homosexuality and the roles that society has set down for men and women and who they should (or some day) should love and care about? To my way of thinking, a child isn't "choosing" in the way we think of choosing. Children just are who they are.

cowboygrandpa, No matter what you will always be grandpa. Your grandson is fortunate to have you and your love and your support. It appears to me that you have a very large compassionate and loving task before you and I wish you both well.

I preferred to play with trucks and climb trees and build tree forts. I could not understand that 'playing dolls' thing- it was SOooo boring!! Now, trucks, on the other hand, were an ACTION toy- that's for me. Also, never had a gay thought in my life.....

There is nothing wrong with teaching a girl to defend herself. Boxing just isn't for boys. Sometimes boys who are mean to girls need to be boxed a good one to put them in their place. Likewise, I hope your grandson can stick up for himself. He does not have to let anyone be cruel to him just because he is different.

Aikido. Excellent choice. As part of aikido, the student learns to use a jo (staff) and a boken (wooden sword). All excellent things to know. It is a martial art that turns the attackers energy back against him. The more energy the attacker expends against himself the better. This man was my teacher:

http://www.shinbudokai.org/index.html

The best words in the Bible, in my opinion.

You, your wife, your cousin and his wife are good people. :) They did the right thing from the start.

E

This reminded me of a quote by Gandhi :

“I like your Christ, I do not like your
Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”

It's been interesting reading your article and all the comments. I don't really know that many christians that spend time talking about religion. I don't know any athiests or any gay people. Or at least nobody I know has told me they are any of the above. I haven't spent much time in church. Pretty much since childhood. Was raised between the Methodist and Catholic churches. My stepmom was catholic but just sent us and never went because she had divorced her violent abusive first husband and apparently wasn't allowed in church? Couldn't find my self interested in a religion that says you have to stay with a violent person who abuses you physically, sexually, mentally, emotionally, verbally and spirtually. As well as being threatening towards their child. And as I grew found more things that I just found hypocrtical. Methodist religion was easier to get.

TO make a long story short I believe in God and Jesus and a lot of things I was taught in sunday school like the golden rule etc.. I find in hard to believe as much in the old testament God and I do in the new testament. Haven't studied religion much. What I do beleive is you can pray and talk to God, ask for his help and support and forgiveness from sin from any place you are rather than having to be in church. It seems like there a little bit of good and alot of the same basic beliefs in most religions. I believe that you have to try every day to be kind, compassionate, caring honest etc.. That I can't always be perfect and that I can be forgiven for my mistakes etc.. Sounds pretty simplistic I know ,guess I'm in the baby steps of being religious. I don't understand atheists. Don't know any. I don't have a problem with atheist in particular just don't know how they don't believe at all. Would love to know more about being religious and atheist just haven't known anyone to talk with about this stuff. This is why I found this so interesting to read all that you all had to say. I like what Just my 2 coppers quoted. I guess thats sort of where I stand about religion at this time. Just wanted you all to know I appreciate all your opinions and you give me plenty to think about. Cowboygrandpa that every thing you said was great and I'll look forward to seeing your posts around.

And there is a reason Future History is coming back to question, so just plant the seed and let it Grow.

I sincerely hope you aren't implying that there is even a miniscule hint in my mind about being mistaken about my affirmation for the nonexistence of God. I assure that is not the case. I simply like to debate with those on the other side of the coin - no matter how unpopular I am.

Future-Maybe the seed that gets planted with you is better understanding of people who have different beliefs than you but are still good, intelligent, interesting people worth knowing??

suz - I have no problem with those who maintain a relationship between themselves and whatever diety they think is responsible for them existing. However, branding that diety with dogma is where I have a problem. There are many religions and they all have their own distinct dogma associated with them. They all have adherents with stories similar to yours. That said, how can you come to the conclusion that the dogma you are personally relying on is the only word of the creator? What makes your experience any more valid than some muslim or buddhist on the other side of the planet? Could it really be that your one true diety is responsible for all these various works, and that it uses them to connect with people across the world? If so, why are these works so at odds with one another that millions of the adherents have lost their lives in defense of the brand they pledge loyalty to? How do you reconcile this worldy overview into a clear justification of your own brand of loyalty?