Who Do We Pledge Allegiance To ??

Boatrocker...... you're on it!

It has to come from inside.

For me it all those that put the little "I support the troops" magnets on their cars, but go home to see how few taxes they can get out of paying because they hate big government. That or want us to commit to preventing Iran from getting nukes, but won't take the oath of enlistment to help do the lifting. I call it cowardice.

gee to me the best way to support the troops is to not let them be used indiscriminately

use them only when it is valid, and when you do, send them in sufficient force, adequately armed, and supported with leadership, planning, and an exit plan

but don't ever use them to legitimize a bloated military complex that exists only to make profits and fight the fears they advertise and market

Spot on hugh b.

The DOD budget needs to be cut about 40%.

Imagine the kind of shape the country would be in if we had used the money spent in Iraq on education? Talk about a return on investment!!!!

Pledges of allegiance given by rote or ritual or policy are nothing but public chest-thumping with no substance. Those 1000s of pledges with which we were once required to start the school day were fascist and little different from the laughably phony forced "grief" exhibited for Kim Jong-il just a month ago, at the point of bayonets.

I absolutely agree, much as that might surprise some people. Most kids don't even understand the Pledge. They think they are being very wise and sophisticated when they get a bit older and say, "wait a minute, we don't have liberty and justice for all." They cannot understand the distinction between idealism and reality. The pledge is developmentally inappropriate for anyone who is not yet a teenager, or perhaps even an adult.

Imagine the kind of shape the country would be in if we had used the money spent in Iraq on education?

Unless you mean college and/or vocational education, the money would just be wasted by the despicable, self-serving teacher's unions. I'd favor using this imaginary peace dividend for vouchers for the poor, though.

I think you will find the performance on SAT/ACT scores in states with strong teachers unions outperform those states with non-union teachers. Hell.... I'll give you the site.

http://www.publicagenda.org/charts/state-state-sat-and-act-scores

I suggest you compare Wisconsin which has a strong teachers union vs. Texas which is lucky to be able to find it's ass with both hands an a bloodhound. In other words.... your just spouting more reich wing lies.

Another funny funny thing you will notice.... Blue states on average outperform red states when it comes to SAT/ACT scores.

I think you will find the performance on SAT/ACT scores in states with strong teachers unions outperform those states with non-union teachers.

I'm not sure that SAT scores are the be all and end all. To me, a truly educated person is one who has learned to love learning so much he or she vows to be a lifelong autodidact. That's a bit different than the model that judges success by treating children like performing seals.

I have a child who taught himself to read and who was reading Twain, Dickens, and even Tacitus two years later. He asked for and got Das Kapital (in translation of course) for his 15th birthday. Would he have been like this if he had not been homeschooled? Or would he have been ridiculed and learned to hate himself?

Imagine the kind of shape the country would be in if we had used the money spent in Iraq on education

Perhaps a country who would learn discernment, and the ability to recognize when they are being manipulated for someone's agenda. *gasp*

Maybe we would have more kids that believe inlifelong learning if conservatives hadn't been villanizing public schools because of integration since the 1960s.... Maybe we would have a more highly educated and competitive workforce if conservatives would have treated education like the investment that it is rather than the "Union" enemy they have made it into for the last fifty years.

Controlling access to education is just another goal of the conservative plutocracy to control the masses.

Maybe we would have more kids that believe inlifelong learning if conservatives hadn't been villanizing public schools because of integration since the 1960s....

I went to public schools, but I certainly didn't learn to be an autodidact there. I learned it from my Jewish father; our people managed to be educated in walled European ghettos while living in poverty. School teaches the opposite of love of learning; school teaches you only work for a grade or adult approval, that you can't do anything on your own (hence those loathsome bumper stickers, "if you can read this, thank a teacher." Wrong. My younger son taught himself to read when he was good and ready.) The passion of learning is entirely destroyed by the average school. The comprehensive high school with it's thousands of students is worst of all. I was lucky my oldest son was able to get a scholarship to a wonderful private high school that had fewer than 100 students in ALL four grades. The older ones mentored the younger ones. No, it wasn't perfect, as teens do misbehave, but the public schools are far worse.

I was lucky my oldest son was able to get a scholarship to a wonderful private high school that had fewer than 100 students in ALL four grades.

Why can't we make this available to ALL kids, not just the few? Or is that just elitist thinking on my part? Sorry, but I think every kid deserves a learning opportunity like the aforementioned, not just the privileged.

we can make it available to all kids via something called vouchers. There is no other realistic way.

My son had a mentor who died of a heroin addiction over winter break his senior year, which was my son's freshman year. The young man who died had he same name as my son and called him "Little ___" Well it was awful, but you can bet nobody from that freshman class ever tried heroin. A kid died in my high schools from a methadone overdose, and I certainly took notice because he lived next door, but most of the kids in school didn't because he was a stranger to us.

Bad Fish

I don't pledge allegiance to anything except my family.

Agreed... "allegiance" tends to suggest an unquestioning attitude, which I think is dangerous personally, socially, and politically. Since I do not believe in a personalized god (I accept god a a "force" like gravity or a "unified field theory). I can certainly not make a pledge there, either.

I don't pledge allegiance to anything except my family.

I can do you one better. I only pledge allegiance to myself. I am the only person in the universe you matters, and the only one deserving of my loyalty. /Immense sarcasm.

Thank God you added the "/immense sarcasm, Oom

I was reading the first part, and as we disagree on occasion, I thought "oh NO"

to declare ourselves No. 1

This.

Chasing -

Wow, yes!

But, why aren't the comments in English. How is someone supposed to read that gibberish. Don't they know English is the No. 1 language in the word - the universal language? /sarc

Perhaps therein lies our (the US) problem - to declare ourselves No. 1.

Agreed.

I appreciate the freedom our Nation enjoys, but I would disagree it has anything to do with a god.

Agreed.

You are telling everyone your god exists and implying we enjoy what your god gave us, but we are too unaware to know that. Perhaps that is one of the things we need to work on. If you want to believe your god gave us freedom, fine. But I would say it is possibly inappropriate (i.e. rude) to tell the rest of us your god gave us freedom.

Agreed, again. I would go one step further and say that our Constitution gave us freedom, not God.

Agreed.

This is totally ridiculous! If you don't say the Pledge of Allegiance, then, I suggest that, hence forth, you void yourself of all benefits derived from living in this great Country.

Nonsense. A person does not have to pledge allegience to a flag or country to be proud and happy to be an American.

I haven't said the Pledge in years. I can put my hand over my heart in respect - just as (even being a non-Christian) I can bow my head in respect when someone says grace at dinner. I would also show respect for other cultures and countries (if it didn't require me to bow or curtsey or something like that - showing respect is one thing, showing obeisance is another).

I love being an American, btw. Symbols just don't mean as much to me anymore as do the actual things they represent. People, not flags, matter to me.

Magno, I respect the flag and I think we have the best country in the world to live in, but, I haven't said the pledge since I was in the service and I won't say it now, does that make me less of an American? no, it doesn't, my family has shed more blood for this country than most American families, we were here when the indians still ran everything from Ohio to Oregon, we signed the Constitution we fought in the Revolution, the war of 1812, the Mexican War, the Civil War, WWI and WWII, Vietnam the first Iraq War, the second Iraq War, I think we have more than earned the right not to say the pledge if we choose not to.

gmross, your legacy sounds like mine. Signed the Declaration, Spanish American War and on and on and on.

I don't know....does that make you less an American? Why wouldn't you say the Pledge? Do you sing the National Anthem?

Katrix....you put your hand over your heart, but don't say the Pledge? Why?

not over it....yes, it is a symbol. It's like patting your child's head or giving a kiss on the cheek to show your love. You don't have to hug or kiss him....he should just know it?

Well, normally it's being recited on TV, not in person, when I'm exposed to it. Or on the radio (a local radio station has a different elementary school class aired reciting the Pledge each morning). If it were being said in person, since I still remember the words, I'd probably say it.

I will tell you, katrix, you are probably more a patriot than I.

Magno, every year during patriotic holidays my father raises a flag over his house, this flag is very special, it draped the coffin of my Uncle Johnny when he was brought home from Pearl Harbor. My family has shed blood for this country generation after generation, I see no reason for anyone, even you to doubt our patriotism, if my country were to call me tomorrow I would serve, can Mitt "I want to defer my draft" Romney say the same? I think not.

No, Romney, cannot say this! I am not a Romney fan....I am an American fan!

I am with cowboygrandpa, in this, I'll defend the Constitution and I'll defend the country, but I will not defend the pukes in Washington that want to get rid of the POTUS at whatever cost just to get someone from their own party in the White House, if it means destroying the country and the economy to do it they say its fine with them.

It's a pity you can't depend on your Country, Vlad's dog!

Who said I don't?

I got a good education, I have had employment, freedom of speech, freedom of religion. You assume too much here magnolia.

Oh, really. You are the one who said your allegiance is to your family and friends. Did I read it wrong? I don't think you mentioned Country! No assumption on my part.

Good history, Peace. I still repectfully disagree that God gave you those rights, of course :)

Nice post.

Hi Katrix, thanks; yeah, my friend I know, and as you also know, it is just what I believe:)) How's your New Year going, hope it's getting off to a wonderful start?

It is, and I hope yours is as well. Isn't it wonderful to live in a country where we can have such differing views on faith, and still get along, and not be persecuted for disagreeing? You set a very good example.

And as you know, I have no proof for what I believe either - BUT I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG ... heh, couldn't resist. My Greek friends seem to have rubbed off on me; they think whoever yells loudest in an argument wins. And OMG - their worship services are even longer than those of Catholics, since we're somewhat discussing faith!

New Zealand. Australia is so arid ... and when you go snorkeling there are Great Whites .. except dang, I need to study oceanography more. NZ probably has Great Whites too, being so close to Australia.

It would be so wonderful if we could all afford to go visit other cultures and bring back what we've learned, which at the least would be tolerance, and new recipes. Unfortunately, we tried that in the past and the other cultures got the worst of us. Maybe it would work out better now when we're not the gobal be-all we used to think we were.

Glad to see you in blue, katrix! Some of my friends have been disappearing and I'm very glad YOU'RE not one of them!

I think you're right-- I wish we could exchange cultures, as well. It would help all of us to understand each other better. :-)

I think there are some damper parts of Australia... maybe Melbourne? It gets awfully hot there in the summer, though. :-) Maybe Cairns? I don't know enough about Australia, but everything I've read about it, they are admirable people, with much the same sense of adventure and 'making do' that we have. I think I could be happy there. :-)

Dowser,

Glad to see you in blue, katrix! Some of my friends have been disappearing

I hope you mean they have moved on from the Vine. I can't imagine that anyone would defriend you. You're a peach.

I've had some "blues" turn back to gray, but it's a Vine glitch.

Every time I think about leaving here, I can't think of any place better to go, except maybe Australia. They seem to be good people there. :-)

*Clears throat and whispers*

Canada

Dowser, I hope it's just a glitch. I haven't seen you much - are you still checking out the history groups? You're still in blue for me.

I just haven't been around as much lately-- family illness. But, I think it was vine glitch! Sometimes, people just disappear-- or maybe I've insulted them and don't know it! :-)

Grish, for the most part, I think I'd LOVE Canada, but it is awfully cold up there! :-)

All y'all, please take care!

In Canada we do not use the word "cold". It is either brisk or F-squared.

LOL! What a hoot!

Thank you, Steve. you are very kind!

Better say the Pledge cowboygrandpa and keep your mouth shut...you don't know how good you got it.

yeah grandpa, if you know whats good for you'll sit down and shut up...or else...pfft...

Hi Katrix,

It is, and I hope yours is as well. Isn't it wonderful to live in a country where we can have such differing views on faith, and still get along, and not be persecuted for disagreeing? You set a very good example.

Great! Yes, so far so good, and yes, I agree; I love living in this Country, and thank you, I believe you do so as well.

And as you know, I have no proof for what I believe either - BUT I'M RIGHT AND YOU'RE WRONG ... heh, couldn't resist.

LOL, of course you believe you are, just as I believe I am; I live by faith, you live by I need proof first. In the meantime, I am right, and you are not, LOL!

Hi cowboygrandpa,

Peace and Blessing:

Don't get me wrong. I love my country, America is still the greatest in my eyes. But I can't stand the Fascists we have in the congress right now, waving their false flags and tring to bring about their fake beliefs

I have no doubt that you do cowboy, your passion is very evident my friend. I do understand what you are saying and why you feel as you do. I have learned it is best for me to just separate that which I find no fault in from that which I do. I find no fault in what the intent of The Pledge of Alligiance is, however like you, I find much fault in those who pretend to be something they are not while standing in front of the "flag"?

Hi Grisham,

Things get changed by doing, not by praying IMO.

Yes, this I can understand, and I just believe in utilizing both is all; but even to go further, praying is doing for me, because it sets/builds the foundation for my actions "doing"? I pray that my actions "doing" is according to God's "spiritual" will and not necessarily my own "flesh" will which can, at times, be contrary to God.

Hi PeaceBlessing,

I find it interesting that you took and kinda commented on one small sentence in Grisham's excellent post... meanwhile, you replied to him. I do have a question for you, tho? If you are doing something that is contrary to god, has praying ever forced you to stop? I mean the simple act of praying, not having anyone interfere and change your mind or curb your behavior.

Grisham,

Great post... as always.

Hi Kinkomaster,

I find it interesting that you took and kinda commented on one small sentence in Grisham's excellent post... meanwhile, you replied to him.

I agree, Grisham's post was very good, and I found no fault in it at all even though we disagree where God is concerned, it is not an issue for me. I did want to convey how I personally incorporate prayer into my daily life/living which may be different than how others may see prayer?

I do have a question for you, tho? If you are doing something that is contrary to god, has praying ever forced you to stop? I mean the simple act of praying, not having anyone interfere and change your mind or curb your behavior.

I actually pray that I do not do that which is contrary to God according to His will. But to answer your question no, praying does not force me to do anything which is why at times I do fall short, not perfect by any means. Prayer for me is just seeking out God one on one, basically, just talking to God asking that He lead, guide and direct me according to His will for my life, and yes for me that simple act of praying has many times led me to change my mind and/or curb if not completely stop certain behavior and/or actions which have always worked out to my benefit and/or to the benefit of others I come in contact with even when I didn't realize it in the beginning or at first glance.

I do not generally pray to God for specific stuff, what I do mostly is thank God for all the stuff that I already have and how best I can use His gifts bestowed on me to be a blessing to others. Another way I do my best to be in God's will is through study of the Holy Bible by simply following God instructions as written, again, not always easy and I am far from perfect, but I do learn from my mistakes and do my best not to repeat them.

Thank you for answering my question, Peace. I always find it interesting in the different ways people pray. Some simply recite what they have been taught. Some make their own prayers and modify them as needed. Then some merely have conversations. Eventho I've left religion far behind me, I still find it interesting in how others communicate with their god. Thanks for sharing.

Thank you for answering my question, Peace.

You're welcome.

Eventho I've left religion far behind me, I still find it interesting in how others communicate with their god. Thanks for sharing.

Again, you are most welcome, but I must also share that I am not a religious person. I do believe in God and His only begotten Son Jesus Christ as my Lord and Saviour which of course by definition does make me a Christian (Christ believer/follower). My belief, my love, my trust and my faith in God is reality from my perspective; religion comes and religion goes if you know what I mean? According to what is written, God promised that He will never leave me nor forsake me, I have found this to be true in spite of religion not because of it.

Yes, this I can understand, and I just believe in utilizing both is all; but even to go further, praying is doing for me, because it sets/builds the foundation for my actions "doing"? I pray that my actions "doing" is according to God's "spiritual" will and not necessarily my own "flesh" will which can, at times, be contrary to God.

I agree that prayer can have beneficial effects, sort of like meditation. It reminds me of the quote:

Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish.

Unless the prayer actually gets up and does something, nothing will get accomplished. :) Always a pleasure talking to you, Peace.

Grisham,

Great post... as always.

Thanks, Kink. Nice posts yourself.

Unless the prayer actually gets up and does something, nothing will get accomplished. :) Always a pleasure talking to you, Peace.

I can do nothing but agree with you on this Grisham, and thank you, I always appreciate reading what you have to say. I've always believed that my prayer is to enlist God's wisdom, but it is still up to me to take the necessary action "do" the best that I am able.

Ah, but dear Grish, the Lord helps those that help themselves. You have to get out there and fish-- you can certainly pray for good luck! And give thanks for the fish! :-)

Sorry, didn't mean to interrupt!

Dear Dowser,

You can interrupt any time. You hold a special place in my Vine heart.

I just leave out the praying part, unless you call talking to myself (internal dialogue) as prayer. LOL.

FR sent, Peace. I too always enjoy your well thought out posts.

My dear Grish-- I feel the exact same way about you! :-)

I think you are a very special person, and I am honored to be your friend.

Sometimes, praying feels like you're talking to yourself... But then, you catch that fish, and you realize that your bait had fallen off the hook, and that is a WOW moment! It's, it's a MIRACLE!

I understand what you mean, and I do believe that we are all responsible for ourselves. I don't know that prayer will change the outcome of events, but if you don't get off your tail end and throw a line out, you'll starve, for sure! :-)

FR sent, Peace. I too always enjoy your well thought out posts.

FR happily accepted Grisham, thank you. And, thank you also Dowser!

((((((((((PeaceBlessing))))))))))) I am honored! :-)

Peace, I will admit that I am confused. You claim to not be a religious person, but you believe in god and his lone misbegotten son, and you appear to firmly trust the book. Tack on the praying and that makes a religious person in my book. If you don't consider yourself religious because you don't go to one of the many churches out there, but speak to him yourself... I would say that makes you even more religious than your average christian, since you are more active with your god. I appears that you have a very strong faith, and that is another thing that I would attribute to a religious person. Simply because you are not like many others on the Vine that are very... aggressive... and tend to fire off quotes at will. I actually hold you higher since you hold those tenets closer. You have a much more open mind than most do.

Dowser, it wasn't a closed conversation. Outside opinion is always welcome. How it is taken is something else. :D I do have one thing that always rubs me. The use of the term "miracle" always seems to be thrown around so loosely. Do you really consider catching a fish without bait a miracle? If so, I performed one when I was real young. I caught a little fish with a paper clip tied to a string, and that was tied around the end of my lilttle bow that I had unstrung... because "indians" had to eat also. Actually was kinda funny. I pulled it out and it scared the crap outta me.

I know it is a stupid thing to comment on, but certain words have had the power sucked out of them because of misuse. Another word that suffers is "love". It used to mean so much, but now you love everything. People love potato chips, tv shows, and McDonalds... yet they tell their mate that they love them. Really? As much as potato chips? I won't tell a woman that I love them for that simple reason... and I'll explain it to them. Problem is... there is no replacement for the word "love".

Hmmm... I better stop before I go on my rant about vocabulary. Sorry, Dowser, I get sidetracked easy sometimes... heh heh

Hi Kinkomaster,

Peace, I will admit that I am confused. You claim to not be a religious person, but you believe in god and his lone misbegotten son "only begotten son", and you appear to firmly trust the book. Tack on the praying and that makes a religious person in my book.

I understand what you are saying, I make this statement so that it is clear that it is not "religion" that I believe in; religion can be mostly about flesh "traditions of men" whereas my belief in God and His only begotten Son Jesus Christ is about God and doing my best to live in spirit while in flesh. From my perspective, I can do without religion in my life, but I can not do without God in my life? I firmly trust in God and I do accept the Holy Bible as the written word of God (inspired by God) but, I do not overlook flesh's involvement in putting it to paper? Specifically, I do not overlook the fact that there were Kenites (son's of Cain) scribing (writing) for Judah way back in the OT so it does cause concern when one comes across a mis and/or just plain incorrect translation from that which is clear in the original manuscripts. An incorrect translation is one of the reasons most Christians in this day celebrate "Easter" Ishtar...a pagan ritual/holiday as the high Sabbath instead of Pascha "Passover" as is written in the original manuscripts. What's the saying..."ignorance is bliss" and/or "a little goes a long way", one incorrect translation can have a major impact just the same?

However, although Passover is still considered the high Sabbath day of worship for many, it is also good that one who believes in God also understand that Jesus Christ is the high Sabbath of all and one can celebrate "worship" in Christ name every day and not just on a specific day.

When I study the written word, I do it based on two clear instructions contained therein...II Timothy 2:14-16 and II Timothy 3:14-17. By doing such it does allow me to gain wisdom, knowledge and understanding based on what is written as I believe God intended. I find that study and rightly dividing God's written word works well for me so I just stick with it.